Professional women getting squeezed out of careers by crazy long hours culture

I'm finding the long hours culture draining and tiring because I am getting older. It's just harder to keep up. Because I didn't achieve a high salary until I was middle-aged, though, I will have to keep working until I am past retirement age I suspect. I don't know how I will do it.

I agree that it is harder now they are at school, have clubs and things though we are very even handed in our house at sharing.

Given how prevalent and deep rooted this conditioning is in our culture, it is a rare man who DOESNT react in that way.

Very well put

Great thread. I hate the long hours culture but am guilty of it myself.

The last firm I worked for was obsessed with squeezing out maximum "value" from its staff. I've moved to a new firm where there's a far better work life balance. I really struggle to change my mind set.

Luckily for me dh is very good at stepping up and doing his fair share of taking care of the kids. But he has fairly long hours too and it's a struggle to get everything done between us.

I am in a senior professional role and go home on time whenever possible - but my shortest day is still out of the house at 8 and not home until 7. I work 4 days a week though and take great pains to keep my day off as just that. Without a very supportive family I'd not be able to do it.

Yup, I've known senior managers walk the floor "after hours" to see who was still there - sometimes the only face time you could get with them would be to still be at your desk at 8pm...

I also agree with the research in the OP - I know so many brilliant, talented women who have stepped back from their careers but their DH's have continued to flourish. In every individual case it has made sense, but there's an overall pattern that can't be ignored. Interestingly, it didn't tend to happen right after having a baby, it has tended to be after baby 2 came along or when the DC started school (and care becomes a precarious patch work of breakfast clubs, after school clubs and a friend taking them to Brownies if you can get back in time to bring them home).

As the much-maligned Xenia would say if she was still posting, "don't marry a sexist"

And I think it's one of social control.

Absolutely. When I worked in jobs with a long-hours culture, there was always someone who would go around checking in the morning and after 6 at night to see who was still there.

Big that's what I understood to be the case in Germany too. I remember a German friend of mine saying "In the UK, if you're not in the office at 8.00pm the boss wants to know why you're slacking. In Germany, if you're not out the door at 5.00pm the boss wants to know why you're so inefficient."

and women returning after 2 years resume their career without penalty

This culture of insanely long hours applies from pretty low down the payscale - just to keep your job - through to professional jobs - required for career progression.

imo though, it seems more the UK-USA / Anglosphere / Asian business culture:

I've worked mostly in Germany, plus a few other EU countries, since the late 1980s and it's usual on the continent to stick to office hours, including professional jobs.
The standard contract is 37.5 hrs, maximum 40 hrs, which are both genuine

Continual unpaid overtime would raise eyebrows and probably a meeting with your manager to discuss adjusting workload or more efficient working practices.

Also, only the UK has the optout waiver from the EU Working Hrs Directive for contract hrs. Some firms require employees to sign the optout waiver before giving them a job.
A coerced "choice".

In my profession in Germany - scientific / R&D - it's easy for mothers to take a couple of years off and definitely expected that fathers take a few months parental leave for a new lo.
Senior managers do this too and it doesn't affect career - in fact a man not doing so would be regarded as not being well-rounded.

A far more civilised work / life balance and Germany in particular is far more productive than the UK on average.

"Incidentally, you don't have to have a long-hours culture for your workplace to be successful."

This is at the heart of it. The myth continues to be peddled that for every industry success is only achievable through 12 hours at your desk, evenings having dinner with clients and weekends on the golf course.

The reality is that's wholly unnecessary for most jobs but it continues to be mandated by blinkered senior managers.

Who's setting the example? Middle aged men with SAHWs who have never heard of wrap around care? Women who buy into the myth they need to ape 'masculine' traits to get ahead?

Our (successful, high performing, talented) team supports parents working (and not just at a senior level). Almost all of the senior managers (including the director) are women with kids who don't see it as catastrophic to leave at 5pm or have a non-working day once a week.

Some workplaces just need to drag themselves out of the 1980s and grow up.

I can relate to all of this- I work FT in a long hours culture (not a well paid one though) where it's known I am a mum and I get treated less favourably even though I am a good worker. Stopping work completely isn't an option for us but I do fantasise about it quite often!

Found the link!
hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pretend-to-work-80-hour-weeks

Totally agree with that link. I have a long hours professional job that I can only do because my DH does most of the childcare/housework in the week. But we are both trapped by it - him in a lower paid more flexible job he's bored with but allows him to do the childcare. Me in a high paid long hours job which we need to pay the mortgage on the house. It would be much easier if the expectation of long hours wasn't a precondition of high pay.
I can't see any way both parents can have a career job without pretty much abdicating childcare to a nanny/boarding school. Which probably isn't going to be acceptable to a lot of parents.

mostly interesting thoughts on social control. I read a really interesting article too about how in fact many men just subvert the long hours culture (ie by going home during the day or claiming to be working remotely while on holiday) where women try to play fair by asking for flex arrangements and the women are penalised.

Handbag - good point about the long hours culture filtering down. This is a recent article on the new pay deal at DWP. (Background - public sector has had 3 year pay freeze followed by 1% pay deals - and for many of us, who no longer have pay scales with automatic increments, this has done exactly what it says on the tin - 3% spread over 6 years!)

DWP are allowing workers to "voluntarily" sign a new contract which would enable them to get up to a 20% pay rise - at the cost of being available for work 8am to 8pm, Monday to Saturday. Does anyone know any childcare (other than a live in nanny) which would cover those sorts of hours? Because I don't. So in effect, there are now two classes of workers at DWP - those with no caring responsibilities who can sign up to be exploited in exchange for a pay rise, and those who do have caring responsibilities, who are stuck being paid a pittance.

Incidentally, you don't have to have a long-hours culture for your workplace to be successful. On several measures, my workplace (which has a lot of part-timers, both men and women - and people of both sexes who are part time and out the door mid-afternoon to do school pickups) is ranked consistently top three in the world, never mind the UK.

This is so true! I had a professional job dominated by men. There was no part time option and the minimum hours were 8-6, but at least one day a week it would be 8-8. People were quite competitive in terms of staying for longer hours and face time. As a mum it was impossible to compete to a single man in terms of hours. Also mums generally live further out of London so have a longer commute.
So for childcare you have to get a nanny or try and drag your children in the rush hour commute to a nursery near your work because you can't make the opening hours of local nurseries.
My DH works 7-6 and often has client things in the evening so can't help out with the nursery run.
Also most people in London don't have families nearby.
So I had no choice but to stop working or to get a nanny for 7-7 5 days a week.

Presenteeism. Obviously.

Unless you're suggesting that the business research that suggested that stupidly long hours were detrimental were referring only to women, then it's hardly women being "matyrs". More that the presenter Ian prevelant in many industries is self defeating no matter what sex you are and therefore has to be viewed societally.

I think some women enjoy being a martyr too much.

What do deals on golf course, or racing driving have to do with gender? There are less women than men going to strip clubs, but frankly, even in the city many men are not into that kind of things at all. Things have changed.

In my industry, we do have bonker hours. It's not about social control at all, it's due to the nature of the industry. The competition is really high, and most clients tend to call before, or after their own working hours. If you work 9 to 5, you are missing out on clients, meaning on commission. Your choice.
I can think of a few industries where it is also true. If women decide to feel excluded, it's up to them. In many places, management is only interested about results, and couldn't care less about your gender.

That's a really interesting piece of analysis.

stars, it's not about having a DH problem in this case, it's not just looking at individual factors, but analysing what is going in on that certain jobs demand such long hours and commitment that both partners can't hold down professional jobs because it's incompatible with family life for anyone.

That's really interesting on the social-control aspect, het. I've thought about it before, but you've put it really succinctly there.

As an aside, anyone woman who wants to be the partner who stays in work should definitely marry an Andy. All of the SAHDs of high flying women that I know are called Andy - why??

The real difficulty is employers who are reluctant to guarantee an employee can leave by a particular time (even though many employees offer to come in earlier and/or continue working remotely in the late evening).
How many employees can't leave a meeting/phone call mid way through without fear of reprimand?

Every type of childcare (apart from family) has an end time. If you're repeatedly late, no nanny, childminder or nursery will tolerate that for long.

The result? It becomes untenable and either you leave or you're conveniently 'made redundant' to make way for someone free of responsibilities (who probably resented you anyway....until they're in the same position).