'Getting Engaged'

Asking father's permission would absolutely be a dealbreaker for me too.

Anyone who thinks that is a good idea does not know me well enough to marry me.

Even if every other woman in their life liked the idea, they don't know me.

I can understand the issue with the other half NOT wanting to be married.

Really? Remembering back to my 20s when friends were coupling up, it wasn't so much that men didn't want to get married (because it gave them more power), but that they weren't quite ready to commit yet. Most of them did, and not reluctantly.
And plenty of women exactly the same.
As a PP said, I'm not aware of anybody in my family ever asking FiL permission. My family is quite working class though, is it a class tradition thing?
I also don't get the thing about women waiting for the proposal if only bad for the women. Men stress all the time about the proposal! Surely it's one of the most nerve-wracking things they are "expected" to do!
I'm sure men don't see this as them having all the power, from what I've read and people I've spoken to - they see it as the woman having the power to say yes or no. That might not be 100% right, but I can see their point about how stressful it must be.
On another forum I post on, men are often saying about how anxious they are about the ring too - to not to spend too little, etc.
The whole thing is just awful :)
Glad mine was low key.

Engagement is designed to control and subjugate women - really? I can't understand that view point at all based on my own experiences. How exactly was i controlled by being proposed to? I could have said yes or no so i clearly had choices. Is the issue you have to do with the expense of a ring being unequal as i didn't contribute directly towards it? I'm confused by this thread.

South I was talking semantics there and how semantics do have a huge influence on how we see things.
Supporting your family and supporting your dw (or DH) isn't the same.
In one case, you work for/support the family, which is only normal as you are a member of that unit. In the other you are supporting a person, that should be able to do that on their own. It implies that the person should be grateful for the support etc...
It's a bit like women looking after children but men babysitting iyswim.

I wasn't talking about whether women ever supported their DH/family. It is very clear that they do on a practical level (whether it is by earning money, support if they are ill or just by taking on all the HW and childcare - all that is support anyway)

Arf at Seneca!

DH and I talked about getting married, we looked at rings and I steered him in the right direction, and then - not entirely out of the blue - he proposed. No down on one knee, no sky writing, no football cam, just us - perfect. I had already told him that if he dared ask my dad for permission I wouldn't marry him (and hinted it would be the end of our relationship...). He was still very nervous when he asked, bless him.

I would estimate that about a third of my friends who are married did the "dad's permission" thing. I suspect it's a dying approach and men will stop expecting to be asked

But don't get me started on the illogical statement that is "next year we plan to get engaged" - you have either agreed to get married (so you are engaged), or you haven't. You do not plan to be engaged!!

This situation got me thinking about engagement. (Usually) man goes to woman's father to ask for her hand in marriage - so woman being passed from man to man. Woman having to wait around to be asked, and appear delighted when asked. I hate it, every aspect of it is designed to control and subjugate women.

Good grief, you cant possibly be serious, is this the 19th century? My girlfriend asked me if I wanted to get engaged over 25 years ago, and I was 'delighted' when she did.

There is a time to talk about systematic and ritualistic oppression of women and there is a time to talk about being risk averse due to fear of rejection, or living up a tree where self worth is defined by suitors making the effort to climb it.

No one has asked a father to marry someone in our family for at least 80 years actually. Don't assume everyone does that. Women are not owned property.

PensionOutOfReach

I am not sure what you mean?

I suppose what I am writing is that if DH is ill, it's not by choice. If I stop working when having children, then it's a choice. Technically, we could both be at work equally. If we were after equality, you could argue that there is no reason for me to stop working over him. So yes, he's supporting me.

You could have both parents working part-time, so one taking the whole of the work load on his shoulders to allow the other one to stay at home is doing the other one a favour.

Women are never supporting their DH when they are out of work totally untrue, I know several cases just looking around me. In my work experience, I have also witness that the majority of women are less career orientated. Take a team of young and single individuals (no kids), and the ones staying late in the office and coming at weekends are mostly male. I worked for some very high up women, but they are the exception, and in my (limited) experience, it's by choice. It's hard enough to recruit, but recruiting a woman is even harder for more demanding roles. Women are less "hungry" at work.

Actually south reading your post again, I find it very interesting that you mention you supporting the family if your DH is ill but somehow if you stop work for a while due to children (that he would want too), then he is supporting YOU but not the family....

Whereas when I had dc, it didn't even cross my mind that DH would be supporting me. I never saw it that way either nor was I expecting it. As I see it, my dcs are my responsibility as much as his and we both have the same responsibility to provide financially for them (and emotionally etc etc)
I didn't think there as or should be any separation in our responsibilities there. And TBH 6 months ML isn't long enough to be considered as 'the husband supporting his dw' no more than I would see myself supporting DH if he was out of work for 6 months.

It is interesting actually to see that women are supported by their DH when they are children, go on ML etc...
But women are never supporting their DH when they are out of work/retraining etc... NOpe, they are just carrying on working whilst everyone has to tighten their belt because there is less money.

even if the woman is a SAHM, I wouldn't see the man supporting his dw financially (there is the idea there that he is doing her a favour and how great is it that he is giving her money like this). He is providing for the family within a specific family arrangement that works for both of them and for the family.
And so it should be because marriage is about moving from being two individuals into one unit, the family (with or wo children).

PensionOutOfReach

I see your point. In my case, I would have no issue to support the family if DH was ill, even if it might be a bit tight. However, I would never have had children if I hadn't been married to someone supporting us. I wouldn't have had children on my own, and I wouldn't have stayed with a man who wasn't willing to support us. If my DH has been unable to work through no fault of his own, I would have stayed with him, but would not have got pregnant. I am aware that shit happens, and some families have to survive tragedy. If you have to, you cope, but I wouldn't have put myself in that situation in advance.

That's what I mean by a husband supporting his family.

Pension - I totally get your issue and of course marriage is a two way street with both people supporting each other in many different ways.
It does tend to happen though (not necessarily, but still in most cases) that it's the woman's salary / career prospects that take the hit after DC. Especially in cases like ours where we had 4 babies with 2 year gaps between them in which time I didn't return to work.
I think being at home can be restrictive or a privilege, depending on the way you look at it and what you value in life. But I agree you never know how things will pan out.

I walked my mum down the aisle, last summer and gave a speech at her wedding.

DP and I got engaged in August, he proposed. We both wear engagement rings. He bought mine, I bought his. (Actually I paid for both and he reimbursed me for mine as his card was playing up at the time)

He knew better than to ask anyone's permission. I won't be walked down the aisle, and there will be no speeches.

'in my books, when getting married, both partners are taking the commitment to support after each other and provide for each other.'

Completely agree but I don't think many people see it that way. I think many people consider the man to be the responsible provider, and a woman's role as being mainly home and children, which is not really important as it's, well, just what women do

I do have a MAJOR issue with the idea that the man is taking a huge commitment to provide for his dw when getting married.
That was actually the comment my mum did when I told I was getting married 'oh thee will be someone to look after you now'
I hated it.
In my books, when getting married, both partners are taking the commitment to support after each other and provide for each other.

Yes it might mean that a man will be shouldering the financial stuff for a while whilst the women will be shouldering the HW and the childcare!! but it can also go the other way and for the woman to be taking care of the man maybe because he is ill/has had an accident, because she is taking over all the HW etc.. (the most common situation) etc...
I didn't get married because I wanted/was happy to become dependant of my DH iyswim.

I conveniently already had a diamond engagement ring. It was my grandmother's. The day we decided to get married, I just popped it on and have worn it ever since. DH was very pleased that I came fully provisioned for an engagement.

I can understand the issue with the other half NOT wanting to be married.
Because as highlighted above, not being married has a hell of a lot of implications (for the woman) and puts her in a more dangerous situation (divorce, becoming a widow etc..)
Also a lot of people still associate marriage with long term commitment and the lack of proposal is actually a sign that the partner isn't happy to really commit, yes even when they have a morgage and child(ren) together. It's like, if there is no wedding, it's much easier to get out of a relationship.

We had friends over the other night who just got engaged and we were discussing the asking the bride's father for permission thing (this DH-to-be didn't because they are both 40 but he was wondering if he should have).
My DH was saying that when he "spoke" to my dad prior to proposing to me 15 years ago, it wasn't about asking permission as such. More about wanting to reassure my DF that he was serious about the whole thing and that he would "provide" for me and any DC in the event of me not working due to having the DC etc. He said it's just about trying to prove you can be trusted. Also he felt the need to do this because we'd only been dating 6 months, he'd only met my parents once before and it would mean me living in the UK, not Spain.

I'm fully aware of the inherent sexism in weddings. There was no way we were getting out of the whole Catholic shabang due to my family though. Also I love the fact DH proposed to me because I think moments like that should be special - and a diamond helps! He gave me a diamond something after the births of each of our 4 DC and why not? He just gave me another one for my 40th to say thanks for everything. There is so much crap in the world that the best bits need to be celebrated. You're only "subjugated" if you feel like that and I just don't and never have.

Awh I love that Dh proposed to me, with a beautiful ring that I chose months before, that he worked hard to save for, separate to our joint finances, I knew the engagement was coming as it was discussed but the proposal was a surprise and it was perfect. I do agree about the permission though!! I'd have been horrified if he had asked my father first! He knew that though so it wasn't an issue. Each to their own but I love that he asked me to marry him

I proposed to DH during sex

We chose the ring together on ebay, bought the ¡pink! dress on ebay, bought our plain rings in a local jeweller's together. Got married in a registry office. My dad walked me in, my sister walked DH in because it should have been his mum, but his mum was in the advanced stages of alzheimers by then.

Unconventional dress, purple shoes, no speeches, no name-changeing, no veil.

Definitely no asking my dad's permission, I'd have flipped! Oh, and we payed for everything ourselves.

I think for some tradition just becomes the 'norm', it doesn't mean they are all brainwashed nincompoops!

I don't mind the "squeee I'm engaged!" thing, but I find it a bit weird when people are already mortgaged up together. My neighbours collared me by the bins with some "amazing news!"...They are engaged! (Squee! ) flash of the Ring, "he asked me on holiday..!"They live together, in a house they both own...could marriage plans really be such a massive surprise?

This cracks me up when I read a particular magazine from my home country, which I tend to encounter at the hairdresser's when I'm visiting my parents. It has sort of 'society pages' that do wedding coverage - a mini-article and three or four photos that I believe you pay through the nose for. But the formula is always the same:

'He whisked me off to Paris on a romantic weekend,' says happy bride Sarah, flashing her diamond solitaire and beaming at her new husband David. 'Imagine my surprise when he went down on one knee under the Eiffel Tower/got the waiter to hide the ring in my dessert/handed me a ring box and a red rose beside the Seine! I couldn't BELIEVE it! I burst into tears and immediately said YES!'

And then you glance at the photos (which always include one of all the six bridesmaids standing with one leg sticking out and one hand on their hip, and a 'novelty' one of the bride and groom chasing one another through a wood or leading a horse along a beach) and see that the bride and groom have three children aged ten, eight and four together, and returned from honeymoon to their Lovely Home in X, which they've clearly lived in together for aeons, so hardly that much of a 'surprise'.

I mean the original point of 'engagement' in less libera/more patriarchal times was that the man had his finances vetted by the woman's father, you declared your (new) feelings for one another, the ring and publicity meant you took one another off the market in front of witnesses, and chaperonage was relaxed to an extent because you were publicly betrothed, and now allowed to get to know one another a bit. Which is why those 'breach of promise' suits from engaged girls' fathers' were such a thing if the fiancé broke it off.

I agree that the wedding industry is responsible for much of the nonsense surrounding weddings, including the proposal as a Big Thing. DH and I were married 30+ years ago, and the decision to marry was one that just emerged as our relationship progressed. And there was no notion at all of asking my father for permission. Also, I was walked down the aisle by my father but there was no "giving away" in the service.

As others have pointed out, many wedding traditions have deeply patriarchal roots (wearing a veil, for example), and the wedding industry perpetuates many of them.

And now there's a whole lot of industry nonsense around having a baby as well. Sex (I refuse to say "gender") reveal parties, anyone?

Snowflake, my sister was like this with her ex. Pretty much told him that she was expecting a proposal in the next 6 months (they had been together for a couple of years). She was also expecting him to spend a certain amount on the ring, I think it was 3 months salary He unfortunately was not on the same page as her, and his psychic powers were not great (like most of us!), so he missed the window. She gave him a 6 month extension, he missed it again. He was a nice bloke but quite fragile emotionally and I think he was overwhelmed by her expectations and just couldn't go for it. They split up and she's very happy with someone else now, who bought her a big rock which she flashes about very proudly.