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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christina Sommers on the election

60 replies

PinkIsRad · 06/12/2016 06:44

www.washingtonpost.com/news/in-theory/wp/2016/12/05/how-to-make-feminism-great-again/?utm_term=.ac20de6aba9d

OP posts:
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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 09/12/2016 10:52

Starting a thread with a link and an instruction is odd. Something of the exam question about it. One of the many strengths of MN is that threads typically read a bit like a conversation. It's more courteous and often far funnier than many other forums. Anyone who is blatantly rude stands out.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/12/2016 08:25

I have just checked the top11 at this time

Apart from this thread none start with just a link or the order to 'discuss'

I am not checking any more

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/12/2016 08:22

And if it is just the link then that probably happens on loads of topics

I still dont like it though

Dont give a shit who posts

Its rude

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/12/2016 08:21

Oooh sorry

Or do you mean

Just the link

In which case i will have to check Smile

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 09/12/2016 08:20

No there arent Hmm

Or if there is its rarely by regulars

Most people on any thread say

"Can we discuss..."

They dont go

"discuss'

Like its an order

Its the 'order' bit i dont like

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 08/12/2016 23:13

Just posting a link in the OP and not commenting is a bit like saying

Discuss...

Dont like it

There are several current FWR threads which start that way.

PinkIsRad · 08/12/2016 22:32

prawn Miffer is right. It's Trolling 101 and OP has form for being crassly insulting and making silly provocative remarks. I end up reading round offensive posts when they don't add anything.

Surprised people read your posts at all then.

By the way, this thread managed to go three pages and went on different tangents, so either I am a great troll, or actually stirred up some debate.

OP posts:
RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 08/12/2016 19:12

Just posting a link in the OP and not commenting is a bit like saying

Discuss...

Dont like it Hmm

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/12/2016 19:10

Miffer is right. It's Trolling 101 and OP has form for being crassly insulting and making silly provocative remarks. I end up reading round offensive posts when they don't add anything.

Mystic, I so agree with you about James Bond. We used to get taken to these bloody films if it rained in the school summer holiday and I knew I hated the whole attitude to women despite not being old enough to explain exactly why. People thought it was glamorous but what actually happened was that all the women JB dallied with always died in the course of the film apart from the one he ended up with in the finale. I dug my heels in and refused to go in the end. They must have been U certificate too, because we were pretty young.

One of the few good things about being older is that I remember when things were far worse for women than they are now.

Miffer · 08/12/2016 18:48

Lass

I don't need telling what I said. I said it. (The it there is what I said, not the OP).

Opening a thread with a controversial link without comment is trolling 101.

"Oh the FWR board wont like that. I'll post it, await the response then cherry pick the bits I want to argue with." Scatter a few textbook passive-aggressive smilies and it presents as fairly typical basic trolling.

MysticTwat · 08/12/2016 17:17

Thinking about it some more, it's why hate the films were the hero takes the unwilling feisty woman and kisses her and pushes her about until she melts and coose.

The James bond gold finger one makes me so angry. But I suppose boys who grew up watching their heros getting the girl that way, could normalise it in their heads? The ex really really liked me he really really wanted us to be together. If only he could make me melt and coo.............?

MysticTwat · 08/12/2016 16:40

I think me calling him a rapist was more of slap in the face, then my (not so well aimed) headbutt. He did look unbelievable shocked and hurt at me shouting it at him, whilst I marched off. I also gave a mouthful to the friend. I hope that it at least gave them both food for thought about what rape is. As I believe it was ignorant entitlement. Neither of them believed they would ever 'rape' someone(if that makes any sense). The ex just wanted me back....I don't know how far he would have gone with me still struggling but if I'd have stopped struggling it most definitely would had gone straight to sex.

His friend originally seemed to think that what ex had done was OK. Until I spelt it out to him.One.by.one, grabbing someone(even an ex or someone you know), pinning them down, ignoring shouts of 'no' 'get off' 'stop it' 'fucking bastard' and carrying on kissing and touching. is sexually assault and if I hadn’t had physically hurt him and managed to get away, when would he have stopped? How was I to know at what point he would stop? or stop at all? What if I had grown tired of struggling and shouting? What then? In my book that is a rapist, don't want to be called a rapist? don't do those things.

It's bizarre that they just didn't see it.

The ex did stay well away from me after, and I got a half apology of the friend a few weeks later. But he insisted ex didn't mean to do what he did, and he really is a nice guy.

We were all in our late teens early twenties.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/12/2016 15:21

Blimey, that was horrible, Mystic! Good for you. The fact that he felt able to complain about you calling him a rapist - well, just how entitled can some men be? You wouldn't have called him that if he hadn't tried to rape you, ffs!

I don't think it is off topic. We've been talking about rape and its prevalence. Or if it is off topic there's a bunch of us.

MysticTwat · 08/12/2016 15:13

pawn My near miss was with an ex. We'd previously being seening each other but I had ended it. A few months later a group of us ( men and women) were wondering home after a night out. My ex was talking to me and we were having a laugh and sort of got separated from the others. He then cornered me in a memorial gardens we were walking through, and was begging me to go back out with him, I said no I liked him but not as a boyfriend, that's when he grabbed me and we ended up on the floor he was trying to kiss me whilst he had me pinned down, and was saying please, please. I was shouting get off!. I head butted him then kicked him and got out from under him. I called him a fucking rapest and to never come near me again, and then set off to find the rest of our group.

A couple of days later a friend of his called me a bitch, and said I'd really upset ex by calling him a rapest, and how dare I, ex would never have actually raped me. Hmm

I've also been raped and sexually assaulted. Plus groomed as a child.
I am amazed, I don't hate men in general.

Sorry sort of off topic.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/12/2016 15:11

Your stories resonate with me, m0stlyhet. It's particularly in those vulnerable years of education and your 20s that this sort of thing happens. Once I was older and settled that sort of scenario just didn't occur. Nowadays I would only be vulnerable to stranger rape, which is far less common.

I'm entirely sure that an alarming number of men consider what they will be able to get away with. The 1 in 16 figure doesn't sound unlikely. However that leaves 15 blokes who wouldn't rape. Men who don't usually hate rape and have the deepest contempt for rapists. I have lots of delightful male relatives and, unsurprisingly, they find rape abhorrent. My DH said he couldn't see the motivation. To him, and to other lovely men, the enthusiasm and joy of their lover is fundamental to their own enjoyment. The friends with benefits I relied on to run the creep out of town didn't let me down. I realise a lot of women have had such bad experiences with men that they see them all as tainted, but I feel that feminists have a lot of male allies. OK, that doesn't change the fact of patriarchy but I've seen men do things that prove they want it dismantled too.

M0stlyHet · 08/12/2016 13:54

Sorry Prawn - it certainly rang bells for me: I've had a few "near misses" but am always hesitant to talk about them because I'm lucky enough never to have actually been seriously sexually assaulted, and I always feel a bit embarrassed saying "hey, this has happened" because it seems so trivial, compared to what others have been through.

But yes, I remember one time in particular as a student where I got "white-knighted". A bloke offered to walk me round the back way to avoid some yobs who were kicking off in the street (they genuinely did look quite scary). Initially I felt quite uncomfortable with him (was only 19 at the time and totally inexperienced). We bumped into a friend of his, and my levels of discomfort immediately dropped, because the friend came across as fine, so he (first bloke) invited us both back for a coffee. Somehow by the time we got to his room, second bloke had disappeared (oh god, the problems of naivety and not being able, aged 19, to say outright "actually, you know what, I've changed my mind.") He got himself between me and the door and put increasing pressure on me to stay the night, to which I kept saying "no", until eventually I had this strong sense of "it's now or never" and just got up and said very firmly "I am leaving now." I always count myself lucky that he didn't turn violent on me, but let me leave - I think his coercion was always going to be purely verbal, but I wonder how many women he just ground down with this approach (I later discovered he had a massive reputation for being a sex pest in the university debating society, which a friend of mine belonged to). And yes, I think he had a routine, and had tried this a lot.

The other near miss was when a friend's boyfriend offered to walk me home after a night in the pub. This one totally blindsided me because everyone in our friendship group had him down as a "gentle giant" type. He sat in my kitchen drinking tea, having walked me home, and pretty much admitted to domestic abuse, said he was getting tired of his current girlfriend, and he wanted me to be his next girlfriend. I managed to talk him out the door (was a deliberate ruse on my part to make myself seem as small and mousy and boring as possible, while flattering his ego and saying how men like him needed strong women and he'd be bored with me in no time - I later read somewhere that this is actually one of the tactics suggested to women trying to escape violent relationships: make yourself as invisible as possible so he almost doesn't notice you're gone). I still wonder whether I unfortunately acted as a learning experience for him - "don't play your hand too early", and whether with his next would-be victim he covered up the abuse, played to the "we don't get along any more, and I wish I was with someone more like you" line, and basically fine tuned his technique.

Because these blokes do come across as having a technique they know works for them - e.g. spike her drinks with vodka, make sure she's seen leaning against you as she stumbles out the pub - and there we have it, instant "reasonable doubt" in a court of law if she's stupid enough to go to the police the next day. Or a hundred and one variations on this theme.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 08/12/2016 12:46

No one commented on my escape story but that man was very definitely a serial rapist, and very practiced at it. He had a routine.

almondpudding · 08/12/2016 10:55

Flaxen, I agree with you that the concept of privilege is unhelpful, but it tends to derail threads to keep debating it, so I just skim over posts that talk about it.

I thought that research on rapists was that their average number of victims was seven (for rape), and that they were also responsible for a variety of other violent crimes against men, women and children. So four percent of men committing rape would seem plausible to me.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 08/12/2016 09:06

What you said Miffer was

This isn't even effective trolling

Honestly, I don't even mind feeding it because I actually feel a bit sorry for the op

So whether "it" was the thread or not , the usual FWR approach that anyone who questions the radical feminism party line is either a troll and/or a man.

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 08/12/2016 07:52

Pink

I agree with you PinkIsRad that "white men" is too broad a category, but it is a much smaller category that "all women" ?

girlwiththeflaxenhair · 08/12/2016 07:41

Xeno

Men are only jailed for rape because rape was once a crime against property

That is what you said (emphasis mine, not were only jailed, are only jailed) You have cleared it up, but you'll surely excuse my confusion.

Miffer · 08/12/2016 07:27

Lass

The 'it' in question was the thread. I referred to the op as "the op".

Xenophile · 07/12/2016 22:32

No girl, I think they lock each other up for rape in 2016 because of the sexual offences act 2003 and other laws I plainly posted about.

The women as property idea was pre Victorian btw, hence the 1828 act which changed things.

I do hope that that has cleared it up for you now.

PinkIsRad · 07/12/2016 21:47

girl white men is too broad a category. white men of the lower socioeconomic classes are, however, as the stats show ;)

OP posts:
girlwiththeflaxenhair · 07/12/2016 21:26

Do you think white men in the US are structurally disadvantaged ?

Xeno

Believe what you choose, however that is the basis of rape laws in England

Same for you, if that's why you think men lock each other up for rape in 2016, because of some victorian law, that's your call.