Does having sex with a prostitute constitute rape?

You can't call every man that's slept with a prostitute a rapist though.. if they were a rapist they wouldn't pay for the sex.

And if the prostitute is 12?

In my book that's rape of a child, paying for it doesn't stop it being rape/abuse.

"woman agrees to have sex with man in exchange for money" it's not rape, but in the real world there is always a context and 99% of the time that context provides the information needed to clarify it as rape, eg "woman agrees to have sex with man in exchange for money and getting to go home without being beaten up".

I had a discussion with a friend about prostitution, basically our conclusion was that if a woman want to have sex in exchange for money that was fine, as long as it was her free choice and a choice of the actual sex acts, and that she could earn as much or more money in another job.

When New Zealand legalised prostitution it was very much a 'we say what we do, and how much' but since then the brothels have brought in a 'one price covers all' so they have no say in the sex acts they take part in.

I'm sorry Smart. Glad you got out.

Smart I'm so sorry that happened to you and hope your life is much improved and improving.

"It's all very well stating that men who use prostitutes are rapists and so on... but how does this translate to helping the women?"

It's a societal mental illness isn't it ? And the first step is admitting there's a problem.

Financial - sort the welfare issues

Addiction - treat the addiction
properly (which we are in my opinion very bad at in this country)

Abuse victims - preferably prevent in the first place, if ANY section of society needs to be criminalised and penalised more it's paedophiles. Post-abuse help victims with removing the stigma of being a victim, get them support, counselling etc

Learning disabilities - diagnosis and support can always be improved

Mental illness - diagnosis and treatment can always be improved plus removing stigma.

But I accept that is all very hard to do and depends on us living in an ideal world.

But - first step - criminalise the customers of prostitutes.

Yes it's absolutely rape.

I am not professing to be an expert but I did do some research for an assignment some years ago. As a somewhat naive 18 year old (at least in my knowledge of prostitution I'm also an abuse survivor) I was extremely shocked, I expected to find pimping, addiction and poverty (particularly homelessness) being factors what I didn't expect to find was that a significant number

have a learning disability

mental illness which affects their ability to assess their personal safety/boundaries or just plain have hypersexuality as a symptom which is exploited by others.

have been prostituted by family from very young ages (truly sickening how often this happens)

are repeating patterns of abuse (I'm the opposite it's kinda put me off sex for a long time so I found it really hard to get my head round that) as a way of coping

Then of course there's those that are trafficked, my assignment was done before the more recent events in the Balkans and Eastern Europe which had led to a rise in trafficked prostitutes in the uk.

"I wouldn't say it's rape on the part of the man. Even if the woman is not consenting as long as the man genuinely believes she is." Oh please!! No way. I find it very hard to believe any man these days using a prostitute doesn't know if they're honest with themselves that most prostitutes have no choice! As for 'not the mans fault' - no demand no supply provided!

"But if you are a man who doesn't check, I'm happy to call you a rapist. If you don't check:

If the woman has a pimp
If the women started working because the age of consent
If the woman was abused as a child and therefore may have boundary issues
If the women is feeding a drug problem and therefore not consenting properly
If the woman is under the influence
If the woman is coerced or trafficked
If the woman has other options
If the woman is desperate for the money (children, rent, food)"

I agree with that last statement to a point but I don't think much of any man using a prostitute to be honest - and I agree calling it 'escorting' is just disingenuous and feeding into mysoginistic cognitive dissonance.

All the laws around prostitution are based on the idea that it's the prostitute in the wrong. The users of prostitutes are not blamed let alone criminalised!

And I apply all of that to male prostitutes too (in researching the assignment I learned they are just as exploited - yes I was an ignorant twat on that score at 18).

That's fair, Giles. Glad you got out when you needed to.
Maggie, I'm talking from my own experience. If yours was ok, that's good. But my laugh is at those who imagine that high end prostitution is quite nice for most. It isn't. Of course for some people it's ok, but it wasn't for me or the women I knew. Thats all.

If you made it absolutelyimpossiblefor any man anywhere to pay a woman for sex... how does that help these women who are so desperate for money that they will resort to prostitution?

If you made if absolutelyimpossiblefor employers to run unsafe sweatshops using cheap labour, children even, how does that help these families who are so desperate for money that they will resort to sending their children to work in them?

It doesn't. But providing a fucking safety net within society would. No one should have to be that desperate in a civilised society.

I think Smart's witness testimony is very powerful, actually.

There are still some people who insist on putting a romanticised spin on the men who use prostitutes.

One read of PN, as linked above, should be enough to disabuse them of that idea. Unless they are punters themselves, of course. In which case, it's every Tom, Dick or Harry (insert male name as you wish) for himself.

So if they made a decision to not do it, surely it was a choice to do it when they did do it?

Of course not. Circumstances change. Because you have no choice at one point in time, does not mean choices don't open up for you later in life.

A drug addiction bungling houses still has a choice, they can choose not to break into that house and take that stuff. A prostitute is quite often beholden to someone else and has no choice. If she says no then there will be repercussions.

I think there is something very wrong with people who pay for sex. There is no way it's purely about meeting a physical need. Not to cast aspersions on my home town but if I had an itch I couldn't scratch myself I could go down to the local bars on a weekend and, provided I wasn't too choosy, could find someone more than willing to have a one night stand and all for free. Paying someone who is not entirely willing (despite what they might say), possibly trafficked, and only there for the money is grim and shows an utter contempt of women.

Level

Bloody phone

If it's not a choice how could anyone ever stop?

I know women who used to be escorts and stopped escorting after they'd had enough and made a decision not to do it any more.

So if they made a decision to not do it, surely it was a choice to do it when they did do it?

I'm not talking about women who've been trafficked maybe you could argue for them it is rape ,I'm talking about the women who can and do choose to leave the 'profession'.

And just because you've been an escort yourself, smartleatherbag, doesn't mean you can tell other posters they have no idea what they're talking about. It doesn't make you some sort of authority on the subject or make your opinion more important than anyone else's.

smart

That's why this thread is so sad yet so confusing.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones. Saying no was naturally not an option really. But nothing "bad" happened to me and I was able to get out when I wanted which was pretty soon after really as I hadn't wanted to push my luck.

I really don't feel comfortable being lumped as a victim like others as I wasn't trafficked or addicted to drugs .

I didn't like it I wish I'd not had to do it but reading yours and others stories I can't put myself on that even it doesn't feel right

Thanks, Mrs P. I'm lucky, I had a loving family and friends and the ability to leave. I remember the friend who was murdered shortly after I left, by an angry punter. She had two little girls. She was intelligent, bright, vivacious, beautiful.

If you made it absolutely impossible for any man anywhere to pay a woman for sex... how does that help these women who are so desperate for money that they will resort to prostitution?

One would hope that there could be such a society that people would never be that desperate. Proper universal welfare etc.

And saying it's rape if the prostitute is drug addicted and has no choice makes no sense, does that mean that drug addicts who burgle or rob to get money have no choice either? In which case they would never be guilty of a crime?

Drug addiction is an illness, and should be treated as such.

I also have no problem with calling men who use prostitutes 'rapists'. They know full well that they are having sex with a woman who (a) doesn't want sex with them and (b) is almost certainly not in a position to refuse, but they go ahead anyway. It mag not be legally rape, but morals and laws aren't the same thing.

Consent is not a purchasable commodity - it is either freely given or it isn't there at all
Yes, exactly

So sorry that happened to you Smart
X post

Almost all of prostitutes are doing it for reasons other than because they love sex with strangers, therefore it is not true consent. Consent is not a purchasable commodity - it is either freely given or it isn't there at all.

Morally, if not legally, it is rape because most prostitutes are subject to coercion. This may take many forms, including financial coercion, drug addiction, physical abuse by a pimp or being explicitly forced by a trafficker. None of it represents consent though.

Giles it's not a standard response to needing money "I'll sell sexual access to my body to some disgusting man" is it? Therefore I think that women who do think that are likely to have a history of abuse and/or are being groomed and coerced by (again) some disgusting man.
Any man who is involved is a disgusting rapist.

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

I was an 'escort'.
The concept of it being a choice makes me laugh. You have no idea. All the girls I worked with, including me, were sexually abused as kids. Most of us were raped, at work, by guys who thought paying meant anything goes.
I do consider prostitution to be rape, yes.

It translates to the Scandinavian model. Selling isn't criminal, buying is. That way there is a lower standard of proof for a woman to get justice in the event of assault. Sex work still goes on but men, society and the police treat the punters as criminals.

I definitely view it as rape. Any man that can get a hard on over a girl with no option to say no, flinching away from him is a scary and disgusting man.