Does having sex with a prostitute constitute rape?

Many years ago I worked for a charity which provided health advice / free condoms / welfare advice for 'working girls' in Edinburgh (where 'saunas' are legal).

Here is my tuppence worth:

NONE of the women had sex 'because they liked it / wanted to'.
Almost all of them hated sex, including with any partner at home.
ALL of the girls and women I had contact with had had some form of abuse as a youngster, which led to them being 'able' to do that for a living.
Lots were still living in abusive situations.
That was in the Saunas.
In the streets (mostly Leith area) many of them either were led into it through drugs or needed drugs/drink to cope with the stresses of not knowing if any random punter was going to beat them up/ cut them (this also happened in the saunas and could be by the owner, not just a random punter).

TheWeeBaby yes, those figures sound about right for the time I knew the rates (late 1990's). The girls in the sauna were not allowed to use condoms for bj's (as the punters didn't like it). One new girl was in a huge state of distress at one of our clinics as a punter had taken his towel off in the room with her and quite obviously had advanced VD. She then 'declined' him. He was furious. Owner made her 'pay back' the punters fee of £40, and the cut he would have taken (£15) and sent her home for the shift as punishment for 'being picky'. So, she was £55 down that night.

I only spent about 6 months with the charity but I'll never forget some of the stuff I heard :( I was told of a Sauna owner who was proud of getting his wife and daughter into the business.

We were also well aware of the HUGE Police involvement.

The other thing I remember especially was that the busiest week of the year, outwith Christmas, was when the Church of Scotland annual big meeting was in session :(

Yy, I'm tempted to copy and paste tarlas post everywhere!

Tara that has to be one of the best posts I have ever read on mn. Thank you for expressing the point so strongly and succinctly.

The potential offence is sexual activity with a child under 16; home office guidance is not to prosecute such activity between consenting teenagers close in age.

i am astonished how many people feel that men absolutely have to have sex and its understandable that they use prostitutes

And this is most definitely a societal attitude that needs to change. A family member found out her DP was cheating on her and lots of comments made, both behind her back and to her face, were that if he wasn't getting "it" at home then of course he was going to go and seek "it" elsewhere. My first ever boyfriend broke up with me because I wasn't ready to have sex. We were together at few months (which is basically forever when you're 14) he wanted it, I didn't, so he dumped me. I was gutted. A family member asked me if I'd slept with him, I said no and that's why he'd dumped me "well that's where you went wrong! Men expect something in return for all the presents and kindness you know!"

The attitude of many, many people in this world is that men need sex and that women must provide it to them. It was only in 1991 that marital rape was made illegal in the UK, someone locally was arrested for raping his wife. He'd been having sex with her while she was drugged, one night she woke up during the act and discovered it had been going on for months. The overwhelming attitude in terms post office queue was that you can't rape your wife, she's your wife and she must know that a man has needs.

As far as I'm concerned, a man doesn't have any sort of 'need' that - in the absence of a willing partner - can't be met by his right hand and a bottle of lube. Passing off prostitution as meeting the needs of men perpetuates the attitude that women are nothing more than glorified wank socks there purely to meet that need. Sure, nowadays we might be able to become doctors or politicians or astronauts but to the sort of men who use prostitutes every single one of us is basically a walking, talking cock socket. These men don't respect women, they don't see them as equal or as people of value.

Considering that many women in the sex industry are there through coercion then the consent they are giving is questionable. These men are complicit in that coercion and, yes, having sex with someone who is unable (for whatever reason) to give informed, enthusiastic, willing consent is rape.

ReallyTired

We don't have statutory rape laws in the UK. A sixteen year old having consensual sex with a fifteen year old is not committing rape.

I agree that prositution is not ok. However it's a matter of having laws that protect the women rather than criminalise the women. I feel that punishing the clients is the best way of stamping out prositution.

I beleive what drives the sex trade is not only that its ok for men to exchange money to use a womans body but also this belief that men have to have sex

this is support by religion and societies attitudes

until we have more open discussions about sex, that both sexes are sexual beings that have feelings and desires equally (but its also individual), that sex is not a right or need but a desire for men and women things will not change

i am astonished how many people feel that men absolutely have to have sex and its understandable that they use prostitutes

Agree bert

is it always consensual

many many women some very young are forced into prostitution

so having sex with a women that has been forced into prostitution you are complicit with her being in that situation

so no op you do not need to get a grip you are asking a question that should be discussed

depends on why the prostitute is doing it. If, like a dominatrix friend of mine, she actually enjoyed it and thought it was easy money, then no, I wouldnt call that rape at all, but if youve got a situation like my dp found himself in when on a business trip to asia, and they had supplied him/presented him with a woman, who was absolutely terrified when my dp didnt want to have sex with her, because of what trouble she would have been in - if he had had sex with her I would have considered him a rapist, and his business partners at the time were rapists because they knew and didnt care that these women had no choice in the matter.

yy Bertrand

"Your choice such as it is exists in the context of a society which has an extreme and deeply ingrained hatred of women."

And perpetuates that society.

What people don't think about is that yes, I'm sure there are loads of women out there who think yes yes this is my own choice bla bla

But the fact remains that if the patriarchy as it is did not exist, this "choice" would not exist.

Your choice such as it is exists in the context of a society which has an extreme and deeply ingrained hatred of women.

"There are definitley some women who are happy with their chosen profession"

Even if this is true, and I suspect that very few would, for example, want their daughters to follow them into the "profession", how is a punter to tell?

The fact that they are prepared to take the chance means that their motives may not be sinister and dark, but their decision making processes certainly are.

Prostitutes can be raped by clients and forced into doing sex acts they didn't want to but not all sex with a prostitute is rape. If they have given and maintain consent throughout the act it's not rape even if they didn't particularly enjoy it.

Some of the responses on here I frankly find insulting.

Yes there are women who are coerced or forced in to it in one way or another. Yes that I would consider rape. But yes there are also women that have complete free will.

And for those confused, there's actually a difference between escorting and prostitution. Prostitution is usually sex only, and commonly with multiple people, or one time only bookings. Escorting is usually going on dates, dinners, drinks plus sex, but you are paid for all of it and it is usually an ongoing agreement.

I escort, and I am in no way forced into it. I'm not hard up financially, don't have kids, don't do drugs, don't have a pimp, no background of sexual assault. Please do not make assumptions on all of us. I know plenty of people in the same position as me. I am also not naive and know not everyone is as lucky as me.

You can't put a blanket yes/no on the entire population of people who pay for sex.

Man prositutes are trapped and desperate. The clients exploit their vulnerability. It's not a nice situation and there is nothing romantic. If the men were half decent human beings they would buy a plastic blow up sex doll instead.

I think there are different types of rape offences. For example a rape of a six month old baby is a more serious offence than two under age teens happily having sex. The fifteen year old teenage boy who has sex with his girlfriend who is two days older is technically committing rape even if the girl wanted sex.

What is "happy" though?

If it wouldn't be a chosen happy career path for 99% of the world, why convince yourself it's one for a small number of people, and would you really assume those people are happy deep down?

Assuming some people are filled with absolute soul-quenching joy at letting strangers use their body in any number of ways for hours on end, how would you identify them?

Clearly the punters don't care or have ways (or time) to check that out.

Given that I don't see how anyone could use a prostitute without knowing deep down that person was being damaged or not by it, I'm happy to lump them all under rapists or tacit approval of the rape system.

Bertrand - of course you can, you can be anything and be a rapist. What I'm dying is the motivation to have sex with a prostitute does not always come from something sinister and dark.

Regardless of whether it's lazy I'm not saying men have a right or need for sex. Their want for sex definitley doesn't trump a woman who doesn't want sex. But if a woman is happy to do it and a man is happy to pay. It's not rape. There are definitley some women who are happy with their chosen profession (just like there are lots who are unhappy)

I have zero experience of the sex trade, like many people. I imagine that being a prositute is a wretched existence. I think that having sex with a load of strangers in one night would mess someone's head. Even if they have chosen to sell their body.

I would like the uk to follow the Scandinavian model and criminalise punters rather than the women. Or force the women to do things like drugs rehab rather than sending them to jail or fining them. The justice system needs to punish the johns. The women need help to get off drugs, maybe psychological help to improve self esteem and access to education and healthcare.

Assets seized from the punters could pay for projects to get prositutes out of sex work.

From the Guardian article, Almost half said they ­believed that most women in prostitution are victims of pimps ("the pimp does the ­psychological raping of the woman," explained one). But they still continued to visit them. So they know, they just don't care. I'm willing to call them rapists.

A lot of thinking around this topic is predicated on the assumption that men have a right to sex, and that they need sex.

"I bet these people in favour of prositution laws being relaxed would not want their daughter to be a sex worker." Exactly!