Can we talk about the football sex abuse scandal?

I can't think of another occasion where sex abuse has been reported on so much.

Saville? The Catholic church? Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're point is. If the evidence suggests that these men are guilty, the story cannot receive too much attention. Would you rather it were toned down a bit?

Devi yes, I have read the entire thread. I feel I have nothing more to contribute as everything I say is being distorted out of context. I feel that if I sat down for a natter over a coffee and digestive we would very much agree, but over the internet I think what we're saying doesn't come across as we intend it to.

We're both survivors. That's our common ground here.

Good points kidnapped. I'd forgotten about Wiggins etc doing that.

Devi,

I was interested in the case of Shane Sutton (former technical director of British Cycling).

During the Olympics on the BBC, Chris Hoy and Bradley Wiggins went out of their way to say how wonderful Sutton was. They weren't asked about him in any discussion, but decided to use their platform to support him anyway. I was very disappointed in both of them. It really did look like powerful men in the sport closing ranks which, completely unwittingly on their part, seemed to underline Jess Varnish's point.

I also noticed that Jason Kenny said nothing about Sutton. His silence seemed to speak volumes at the time.

The cynic in me wonders whether Jess Varnish's complaint about the sexism of Sutton would have been taken quite so seriously if Sutton hadn't also been so disparaging about Paralympic cyclists.

'Accuser' is an offensive term to me in this context. And I explained why.

It's the term that papers like The Sun and Daily Mail use to imply disbelief. They pretend it is a neutral word, while all the time inviting their readers to judge, disbelieve and blame the 'accuser'.

If you'd referred to 'victims' (in inverted commas) it would have the same meating and effect.

You are right that anyone can be a rape victim - no one us disagreeing with you on that.

However statistically, it's worth point out that women make up the vast majority of victims and men make up an even bigger majority of perpetrators. It is gendered, and part of addressing the issue will involve looking at those gendered aspects.

HeyRoly it is based on personal experience, and it's fine. Everything in context. X post, sorry.

HeyRoly have you read the full thread?

Also wanted to add boogers, that if your statement above had anything to do with your personal experience (and I sincerely hope it isn't, because that would be awful) then I apologise for stating the bleedin' obvious.

WomanWithAltitude I am a victim. No court will ever convict my rapist. That's the way it is and I deal with that every day. And I'm not sure why you think X is a pretty crap way to describe victims. (I'm not sure what term I used that was offensive to you, which is why put it as an X)

Men are victims. Women are victims. Girls are victims. Boys are victims. By saying it's a sex thing detracts from the initial point. I'm a victim, an accuser, a survivor.

But if rising above the competition means performing sexual acts on your coach, what do you do as a 10-year-old desperate to get on the team?

I don't think it's appropriate to suggest that a child would allow themselves to be sexually abused to further their sporting career. Children don't give sexual favours.

Apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but it sounded like you were suggesting that a child would consent to sexual acts for personal gain.

Just because our media refers to victims in that awful way, doesn't make it right. We should stand against it - it's a really nasty term to use because, like it or not, it implies disbelief.

I didn't magically change from an accuser to a victim when my rapist was convicted. I was a victim and he was a rapist from the moment he touched me, regardless of whether it was reported or whether he was convicted.

I'm a rape victim. It happened between the ages of 8 to 10. I still don't know what to call it. I'm an accuser, I think so anyway. I haven't yet done anything about my rape and sexual abuse

You haven't accused anyone, so how can you possibly be an 'accuser'? Also - you know it happened whether there is ever a conviction or not. You could call yourself a victim, or a survivor, but 'accuser' is the word that rags like The Sun use when they want to imply a victim is lying.

Do you really think someone transforms from an 'accuser' to a genuine victim when a conviction happens? What message do you think that terminology gives out?

I watched Victoria Derbyshire this morning and its awful and yes they are men but they were also abused by men. It just seems endemic for that period :( again it was mentioned that other adults must have known who were close to Bennell

And it's not an outpouring of support, it's people who have waived their right to anonymity and have received favourable response in doing so.

WomanWithAltitudeI didn't intend to use the term 'accuser' in a negative way, merely as someone who has said that someone has done something that has not yet been proven in court.

That sounds pretty negative to me. Essentially it's saying 'we won't believe you until a jury has convicted. And given the low conviction rate (6% ?) it's a pretty crap way to describe victims.

SoFeckingCross can you point that out to some people up thread? We're all on the same side.

WomanWithAltitude I didn't intend to use the term 'accuser' in a negative way, merely as someone who has said that someone has done something that has not yet been proven in court.

I'm a rape victim. It happened between the ages of 8 to 10. I still don't know what to call it. I'm an accuser, I think so anyway. I haven't yet done anything about my rape and sexual abuse, but calling the person who did it to me 'abuser' puts it in context for me. That's where I'm coming from and that's why I use that term.

Devi you're right in a way, that you just wish it didn't take some celebrity men saying what happened to them for people to see how serious abuse by men in power is*. I would truly like to believe that if Jess Ennis or Steph Houghton had said the same about Barry Bennell then it would have been treated in the same way. But in the way that it's presented, football, it's mainly men, especially at club/elite level. It's just the way it is. Let's deal with that in a different thread, but right now, for me, it's an issue of abuse at grassroots level. Promising gymnast, promising footballer, promising athlete, promising swimmer - how do you rise above the competition? But if rising above the competition means performing sexual acts on your coach, what do you do as a 10-year-old desperate to get on the team? From the four footballers to your son going for football practice or your daughter going for dance class, how do we protect our children?

It's a grassroots thing. If you haven't read the articles and sound pieces I implore you to do so. Brian Moore is a good place to start.

Boogers I still think you're missing the point here

I sure that we all agree that the sex of either the abuser or the abused doesn't matter, it's still abuse, it's still horrible, it shouldn't happen to anyone.

And that anyone who has been abused deserves all the support they need, but pointing out that up till now this has not been the case.

Thats the point, no one is trying to 'detract from the men who have survived and the men who have spoken out.'

We're wondering why the sudden outpouring of support (and hoping this is a true change in how the victims of sexual abuse are treated by the media etc)

isn't it a positive thing that they've come forward with encouraging signals from the media that abuse within sport is a taboo that needs to be brought to light?

Yes, totally agree.

Boogers - I haven't downplayed anyone's experience.

We still have anonymity where we might never truly know how many accusers, of either sex, there are.

Firstly, please don't refer to rape victims as 'accusers'.

And we do have information on the number of rape victims and the number of male and female victims - the national crime survey tells us this every year (for all rapes, not just those reported).

Also, despite anonymity, the CPS have plenty of data about the cases coming to court, including the sex of the perpetrators and victims. Victims are only anonymous in the press, they're not anonymous in court.

massive bolding fail there, really, please, do forgive me because I want to engage in this discussion.

*WomanWithAltitude

What we are pointing out are the glaring discrepancies in how different victims are treated - by the police, in the media, and by the public.*

That is an absolutely fair point. I just don't want to detract from the men who have survived and the men who have spoken out.