Mixed sex wards and trans women.

There could be situations where a tranwoman could lose dignity by being e.g. half-naked, but it will not be due to exposing a vagina. A transwoman does not have a vagina

Well that's alright then. I am sure no man would get turned on when he catches a glimpse of the surgery that some transwomen have

But then other people can have their dignity saved by potentially sacrificing theres

Isn't that their choice to make though - rather than having it forced on them by transwomen having a right to be bunked with the women?

As usual the argument appears to be...transwomen are in danger from males. Women are in danger from males. So transwomen being safe comes above the need for women to be safe. As with most arguments of this sort, there is no 'fair' answer. somethings got to give. And as usual, it seems to be automatically assumed that women should be the ones to give way to make others more comfortable, whilst putting themselves into a bad position.

ego147 wrote - "A transwomen who has transitioned could easily end up half naked exposing their vagina,in a male ward. Their dignity has been sacrificed."

There could be situations where a tranwoman could lose dignity by being e.g. half-naked, but it will not be due to exposing a vagina. A transwoman does not have a vagina.

ChocChocPorridge

Exactly. And I also take issue over the same thing that's involved in the bathroom debate. It's a sense of entitlement. Because they feel like they are a woman, therefore they are entitled to occupy a woman's space. The sense of 'I am the same with you and we're all in this together', I would find off-putting.

It also does nothing to address those who trans because they're sexually motivated. Who cares what their testerone levels are?

There are many reasons to segregate based on sex, all interwoven - you can't try and prioritise them in order to dismantle each one.

Transwomen need their own space. Definitely. But if that's not to be had, their feelings don't trump women's rights to sexual segregation.

I don't think that saving one person's dignity by sacrificing others is a good or fair solution

But then other people can have their dignity saved by potentially sacrificing theres.

A transwomen who has transitioned could easily end up half naked exposing their vagina,in a male ward. Their dignity has been sacrificed. No man there would sympathise with them.

That transwomen weren't safe on male wards, so they should hide from the blokes in the female ward

No. I have said upthread that I was in my own private room. I explained how it made me feel more comfortable and it also both stopped me being stared at on the female ward - so it stopped the women on there feeling uncomfortable and me feeling uncomfortable.

I am more than happy to be in a private room. I feel it would stop me being something to be stared at (which would happen on a male ward) and also make women feel more comfortable if I wasn't there.

People have discussed safety - and that's why I asked about safety.

All I want if I am in hospital is not to feel uncomfortable and to make people feel uncomfortable. I just want to have my treatment without 'being noticed - and that's why I would love a private room. Just as others would, no doubt.

I think it can be about either really - but I thought your argument was both dignity, and safety? That transwomen weren't safe on male wards, so they should hide from the blokes in the female ward?

I don't think that saving one person's dignity by sacrificing others is a good or fair solution.

The only time I've been on a segregated ward was post c-section. I had everything out, lots of prodding/poking - not to mention pain and exhaustion from failed labour and resulting EMCS. Nurses commonly strode in and out. Now, to be fair, I had very little dignity left - you don't after having a baby - but I knew that any male that caused any issues could be ejected, because the only people who had a right to be there were the female patients and their babies. I knew that if the person opposite caught an eyeful, then she was in the same boat and sympathised.

I would feel different if it was a male patient, I would feel more embarrassed (as, I expect would he). The fact of the matter is that if someone is getting off on seeing half-naked, vulnerable women, it's going to be a male, no matter how they are dressed.

What I mean is we are trying to make people fit a physical building built by humans when we wanted everyone pidgeon holed into one sex or the other. But in reality, we are much more fluid with gender and even sex (you have xxy) so the physical building is wrong, and lots of people should not bend to the building but the building should be adjusted for the people going in it. Ergo we should have lots of rooms and very few wards

As with the toilets I think we look at this the wrong way, which makes it confusing. Why try and make everyone fit into either one or the other?

Hospitals should have lots of rooms, and hardly any wards imo. The doors should lock on the inside so only someone with a badge key can get in, but anyone inside can get out easily. It offers loads more privacy to people who need it for many many reasons other than gender/sex.

Having been in hospital on both a ward and in a room I can say the room felt much safer and whereas on the ward I felt exposed. To other women, their families visiting, the staff and so on. In a room I could actually sleep without worrying who was about. It would not worry me being on a mixed ward, because I know weirdos will try and get at you no matter where you are and being on a same sex ward does not protect you from that.

I also have a lot of sympathy for someone who identifies as one gender whilst being born of the other sex and then feeling they have no space at all, because they fear the same thing: aggressive, antisocial people. Like we all do. We're all human and should be given the same treatment. So hospitals should phase out wards and phase in rooms with physical separation and doors.

I don't think that male violence is women's problem to solve either - especially not by putting males in with females

Do you think that violence is the main concern here?

Or is it more about dignity?

I've said it upthread, but I'll say it again (even if I am in a minority on this thread). I think that fully transitioned transmen and transwomen should be on the ward that corresponds to their new gender. I don't agree, for example, that the eighty year old transwoman who transitioned fifty years previously should be on a male only ward.

The key for me is that they are fully transitioned, not the "widening the bandwith of what it is to be a woman" "self-identified laydee" folk

when you talk about tranwomen, you think they "need" to be on womens wards and it's absolutely vital that they're not on men's wards

Have you read my previous comments on here? I have said that transwoman and women are both at risk - and lack dignity on a mixed sex ward. If a woman is at risk, then so is a transwoman. If a woman lacks dignity, then so does a transwoman - especially one who has transitioned.

I think a transwoman who has transitioned, who has breasts and has had surgery would feel vulnerable and feel a lack of dignity if they were to be on a male ward.

I can also see that a woman would feel uncomfortable and vulnerable if someone who looked trans was on a female ward.

So....what would you do? You have a group of people who you need to treat with dignity and stop them feeling vulnerable. You could put them in a private room. That's fine.

What if there are no private rooms?

I think transwomen belong on the male ward more than they belong on the female ward if pressed.

I don't think that male violence is women's problem to solve either - especially not by putting males in with females.

and I also agree that the reasons for the violence will be different - and I'm not convinced that the types of violence have equal likelihoods in hospital, and still even with all these things acknowledged, I don't see why that means males have any right to be on the female wards.

So let me get this straight ego

when you talk about tranwomen, you think they "need" to be on womens wards and it's absolutely vital that they're not on men's wards.

but when we're talking about biological women, they don't really "need" womens wards.. it's just "nice to have".. and "a little bit more dignified"

That pretty much sums it up I think!

Not really. Mine is at the bottom of the female reference range

I stand corrected. Still a red herring when it comes to letting non-females in to female segregated spaces.

Given that transwomen are at risk on male wards, I support putting them elsewhere. I do not agree that that is the female ward

Other people would disagree with you. They think transwomen should go on the male ward.

No, that's not what I said, what I said was, that the women's ward is for females

It's what someone else said. They implied that transwomen should go on men's wards and they should be able to fight back if attacked.

And if anything, the private room was less safe as it was just me in there.

So that's ok - they should be able to defend themselves then? I'm guessing it's their fault if someone sexually assaults them because they should have fought them off? But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them

No, that's not what I said, what I said was, that the women's ward is for females - there is a positive categorisation for good reason. Compromising that, changing that to 'females and vulnerable males' deserves some discussion with the people who's previously sex-segregated space is being opened up.

Given that transwomen are at risk on male wards, I support putting them elsewhere. I do not agree that that is the female ward.

I also don't agree that this is women's problem to solve actually. I don't see an issue with us defending our right to a space free from males, even those who have had surgery.

nor qualifies them to understand why biological women need single sex wards, as your "nice to have" comments so clearly demonstrate

Do you think a single sex ward keeps you safe?

I don't think it does. When I was in hospital, there was a male bay and a female bay. Anyone could walk in at anytime of day or night.

I think it enables privacy from people of the opposite sex at a time when you feel vulnerable.

Right, so it's not the oestrogen then - it's the low testosterone, which, even in a transwoman is higher than it is for any woman

Not really. Mine is at the bottom of the female reference range.

HTH

And in transwomen, the testosterone levels go very low. I've certainly noticed a loss of strength

Lots of biological men experience "loss of strength" for lots of different reasons. None of which compare even slightly to the overall physical disadvantage of being female and the underlying vulnerability that causes, nor qualifies them to understand why biological women need single sex wards, as your "nice to have" comments so clearly demonstrate

' I don't think that safety is the biggest issue as wards and hospitals are very open and easily accessible. I think it's more to do with dignity and privacy.'

I suppose it depends how you define safety - groping and being spied on happens in comparably public, accessible places (public loos, shop changing rooms - personally i have been groped in a reclining seat on a North Sea ferry, spied on in a shop changing room, flashed at in a bus shelter) - is that a safety issue or a privacy and dignity issue?

Personally I would like to see compromises on this matter - a transwoman with breasts is likely to have an utterly miserable time in a men's ward, but equally, I've heard too many accounts of transwomen behaving inappropriately in women's wards to think that a blanket rule based on self-identification is remotely reasonable.

Transwomen are still stronger than women, no matter the hormones they are blocking/taking

and weaker on average than men.

So that's ok - they should be able to defend themselves then? I'm guessing it's their fault if someone sexually assaults them because they should have fought them off? But it's ok, they do have a vagina but they were put on the male ward - where a bloke raped them?