Mixed sex wards and trans women.

you accept that men would be turned on by the site of a transwoman's genitals

No I wouldn't say I accept this.

Its only when this whole 'anyone who identifies as anything IS that' rubbish started that this became an issue.

Completely agree.

Most men would not do an analysis of whether they thought a particular MTT had a low testosterone level. Men's willingness to pick a fight with another man is not the same as men's willingness to be violent to a woman. The risk of rape is similarly much different as straight men don't want to have sex with MTTs, surgery or otherwise.

Personally I would feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of men at the moment.

I would also feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of women.

Luckily, the only time I have to ever get changed in a public area is in a place with cubicles. No validation here.

Indeed. Most transsexual people just want to get on with their own lives and be happy and as comfortable as possible. Don't wish to cause a fuss or draw attention to themselves.. Its those who don't wish to change anything but wish to be 'treat as women' who are the problem. And are dragging genuine trans people down with them :S

"What would safe spaces look like? "

That is something for you to figure out with other trans people and campaign for.

I can tell you what they don't look like: The female area.

What do they call a trans women's vagina? I bet it does have some medical/scientific name

A neovagina?

Male, female and neutral.

I am open to any other suggestions on how we can solve this without females being put at risk though?

Though all of this WAS fine already. Or according to the two transwomen I know anyway. Those who suffer dysphoria and want to 'change sex' or have taken steps towards that (both I know are post-everything) could use the facilities of whichever sex they were trying to be. Its only when this whole 'anyone who identifies as anything IS that' rubbish started that this became an issue.

Not sure how this used to be in hospitals and such though. But this was true of changing rooms, loos and such. Apparently.

if you ask me it's more about validation than anything else for them

Personally I would feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of men at the moment.

I would also feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a group of women.

Luckily, the only time I have to ever get changed in a public area is in a place with cubicles. No validation here.

That's a point. What do they call a trans women's vagina? I bet it does have some medical/scientific name.

Changing rooms for men, women, MTF and FTM?

I don't think trans people would accept it anyway, if you ask me it's more about validation than anything else for them. The whole 'trans women ARE women' mantra proves that.

I raised my objection to your post because your inappropriate appropriation of the word vagina to describe a transwoman's genitals should not go unchallenged

But you accept that men would be turned on by the site of a transwoman's genitals and that would be 'a bad thing' (to quote your words) for a transwoman.

Thinking about it MtF trans medical staff might present more of an problem. Imagine, you're on the ward, a nurse needs to intermitly examine you the nurse is MtF trans. Where do you stand refusing this if not comfortable with it?

I just do NOT understand the focus on getting women to give in instead of pressure to create safe spaces for everyone

What would safe spaces look like? Changing rooms for men, women, MTF and FTM?

Toilets for men, women, MTF and FTM?
Hospital wards for men, women, MTF and FTM?

I honestly don't think that would happen.

ego147 wrote - "I am sure no man would get turned on when he catches a glimpse of the surgery that some transwomen have "

In no way have I disputed that a man could get turned on by seeing the surgery that some transwomen have (and that it could be a bad thing to happen to a transwoman), but even how a man reacts to seeing a transwoman's body does not magically transform a tranwoman's surgically altered body part into a vagina.

I raised my objection to your post because your inappropriate appropriation of the word vagina to describe a transwoman's genitals should not go unchallenged.

That would be great. Given the very few trans people who exist, we'd pretty much have our own rooms and space to ourselves in hospitals. We could have the trans ward.

This is entirely possible though, and I am sure you agree, the best solution to everything. Transwomen would feel safer and have more dignity, women would be safer, and the men can go along with everything fine and dandy as always

I just do NOT understand the focus on getting women to give in instead of pressure to create safe spaces for everyone.

I can't imagine the men on a male ward being comfortable with an elderly transwoman on there - I am sure that there are men who would feel uncomfortable in that situation.

Men uncomfortable, oh no, what shall we do. Oh lets just eliminate the mans discomfort and make women uncomfortable instead, who cares about them...

The time this WILL be discussed properly is when it starts to affect men. I await eagerly the many stories of transmen calling gay males transphobic and bigoted for refusing sex with a vagina.

With more and more people identifying as trans, you would think that instead of forcing women to roll over and give in, TAs would be pushing for separate safe spaces that mean noone is made to feel unsafe and such. Its the best time to do it, while 'trans' is on the rise surely...

hopefully all the transactivists will have campaigned for separate space

That would be great. Given the very few trans people who exist, we'd pretty much have our own rooms and space to ourselves in hospitals. We could have the trans ward.

Actually thinking about it, I wouldn't really have any issues with fully transitioned transpeople going on the ward of their chosen sex. I understand others think differently though. The issue for me is this self identification lark. Or even 'gender change' certificates being used as a benchmark. As in this case, there would be a whole bunch of penises on the female wards...

I do see a huge difference between those who 'claim' to be trans, those who simply crossdress and those who actually have the surgery required to make their lives more bearable. I am still in the 'I do not believe its possible to be trans without suffering sex-dysphoria' camp personally. But this is a transphobic view to hold these days.

Whatever my personal views though, it is undeniable that womens rights and trans rights are not compatible with each other. And if its acceptable for transwomen to be separated from male people for safety/dignity reasons, then it should also be acceptable for females to be separated from males for the same reason. No easy answers. But the problem is, it is ALWAYS females who are expected to 'suffer the consequences' as it were...else be named bigots. This needs to be spoken about, properly. Without cries of 'transphobe' and conversations being shut down for raising any concerns. The whole trans-agenda is damaging for females, AND trans-people alike. Assuming said transpeople actually do suffer dysphoria...and aren't just perverts or attention seekers of course. Second group seems to have snuck in via the backdoor and attached themselves to those who do deserve sympathy and understanding.

By the time there are more elderly transwomen, hopefully all the transactivists will have campaigned for separate spaces. Job done.

I'm tempted to write 'who cares?' ego because invoking some hypothetical elderly transwoman to bolster your argument just shows how weak it is

Actually - I was using olennas argument. And why is it hypothetical? There are going to be more elderly transwomen soon.

There IS no easy answer as trans-rights and womens rights crossover

There is no easy answer. I can't imagine the men on a male ward being comfortable with an elderly transwoman on there - I am sure that there are men who would feel uncomfortable in that situation.

Oleanna - I agree (posted somewhat similarly upthread)

Ego - re the dignity v violence thing - it's not one or the other. The former is the normal reason for concern; the latter is hopefully rare but if it occurs more serious. re what should happen if a trans person would ideally have a side room but there isn't one - I can't see how one rule can fit all, especially for those in the process of transition. The best solution may vary not only depending on the trans person but also who else is in the wards. Bloody difficult for the staff to make those decisions though.

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?

I'm tempted to write 'who cares?' ego because invoking some hypothetical elderly transwoman to bolster your argument just shows how weak it is.

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?

I have no idea, what do you suggest? If no private rooms are available?

Its unfair to either transwomen, or to women. As in all cases like this. There IS no easy answer as trans-rights and womens rights crossover.

And as usual, it seems to be automatically assumed that women should be the ones to give way to make others more comfortable, whilst putting themselves into a bad position

Where should that 80yr old transwoman go who transitioned 50 yrs ago?