Mixed sex wards and trans women.

There are some pretty misogynistic views on this thread ...

Pink
"So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases."
No, I'm not stereotyping an entire class of people at all. I'm listening to them, and observing them, and taking in what they and their proponents believe about women, and how they treat women. This has led me to understand that for a natal male to believe they are actually female/a woman, involves inherently sexist stereotypes, misogynistic fetishising of females, and railroading of women's rights.
Which leads me to think that I would feel even more unsafe having a transgender natal male near my nethers, than an ordinary male HCP.
This is not discrimination, any more than a middle eastern patient not wanting an HCP who wears a "white pride" badge.
And for the record, your blindfold suggestion is utterly repulsive.

CoteDAzur just like no woman could possibly vote for pussy grabbing Trump? And I don't know what kind of men you have been meeting, but blindfolding isn't a fetish I have come across much, or at all. You should disconnect your emotions from you argumentation.

It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.

So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases.

Imagine if 95% of people felt the same way as you, pretty unlikely that that group could carry out that profession. All because of your prejudice. That sounds a lot like discrimination to me. And just because in actual fact it's not 95% of people does not make it any less so.

"a man would be preferable to a man who thinks putting on a frock and removing his penis makes him a woman. Because the latter has already shown they have a misogynistic view of womanhood."

Pretty sick views on transgender people in this thread.

"put on a blindfold."

WTF

I don't believe for a second that you are a woman. A teenage girl with know-all arrogance, perhaps.

No woman would tell other women to put on a blindfold(blindfold, ffs!) if they don't want to spread their legs for a strange man to stick a metal rod up their vaginas. Fucking hell.

And if we want to run away because we feel unsafe, we should just chain ourselves so.

Any other male fantasy suggestions you would like us to perform?

Lass the assumption that all or the majority of trans healthcare professionals will be up to no good does not sit well.

There is no such assumption here. This is like the bathroom thing - we don't think most transwomen will attack us, but we don't want to give the opportunity to those who would, or who would pretend to be trans in order to have access.

AFAIK the evidence shows that late transitioning MTT are usually autogynaephiliac. Regardless, I do not want a man doing my smear test. I would possibly make an exception for my male gynaecologist, but that is only because I have got to know and trust him over time (as well as the fact that he's already been closer to my sexual organs than any other man is likely to, albeit wielding surgical implements and through the non-erotic method of incision to the abdomen... ). But for someone who's basically a stranger, I'd go for a woman every time. This is based not on assumptions, but the facts of male attitudes, abuse, and violence towards women ( on the whole, ie. NAMALT). I don't care if the man thinks he's a woman.

Actually if I had to compile a list of "most preferable" to "least preferable" to do a smear test, a man would be preferable to a man who thinks putting on a frock and removing his penis makes him a woman. Because the latter has already shown they have a misogynistic view of womanhood.

I would certainly feel far more uncomfortable with a transgender natal (born/biological) male examining me, than a garden variety non-trans male.
It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.
I would prefer to be examined by a female, but in a situation where that was not possible I'd rather an ordinary male HCP than a 'transwoman', mostly because of the attitudes I know a transwoman will likely have about females.

As the majority of late transitioning males have AGP do they?

then a transwoman doing intimate exam is cause for concern for females, if you can't insist on an actual female

Is it? I'm not comfortable with this idea that you can determine not only what a person's innermost sexual desires are just by looking at them and (b) that they will be unable to suppress or contain them whilst doing their job.

And no I am not saying you should not ask for a woman or a man if that is what you want (personally I don't care and would not ask, although on the 2 occasions I specifically sought gynaecological advice the male gynaecologist was far more sympathetic and,unlike the female gynaecologist , solved my problem) but the assumption that all or the majority of trans healthcare professionals will be up to no good does not sit well.

(Well, any rate is worrying, but ykwim.)

Pink - as in many women suffer from not just one incident of male violence, but a worringly high rate of it throughout their lives. Having a strange male HCP penetrate their vagina, may cause deep emotional distress because of the previous trauma they have sustained.

I hear ya, Datun.

It is not an 'extra right' to have a choice over who performs an intimate examination.

For instance, The NHS page on rectal exams www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Rectal-examination/Pages/How-it-is-performed.aspx - so applicable to men even more than women - says that some people find it embarrassing, or have religious or cultural sensitivities and therefore may prefer a same-sex GP.

Olennas

I think I'm just finding an awful lot of men lately just not understanding. Agreeing, yes. Having sympathy, indeed. But then dismissing it and carrying on as usual.

Not sure if I can bothered responding to half of that, TBH. Blindfolds will make everything OK...?

Datun - I know what you were trying to get at, but I do't think that there is a similar parallel for men. Will think on further on that

I disagree Pink. And can't be doing with arguing the toss. It's a fairly prevalent feeling, hence NHS guidelines. If you don't get it, so be it.

But that is a psychological issue. That's totally different to "I feel uncomfortable". Being offended or being uncomfortable shouldn't give you extra rights just because.

There are plenty of blacks committing violent crime, plenty of Muslims committing terrorist acts, are you advocating it's ok to judge the entire class of blacks/Muslims?

But really? Violence from strangers is much less common than from people you know.

Not sure that was the point Pink. It was women who have suffered male violence/rape could be triggered by a male performing an intimate exam.

I'm not going to tell any other woman how she should feel.

No one asks you to. But what the debate is about whether those feeling are in warrant of special treatment. In this case I dare say there are enough female personnel around to make this viable, so they can afford to do this.

Pink - you do know that there are plenty of cases of HCPs not staying professional, don't you?

The NHS link I posted upthread says you can ask for a female nurse or doctor to perform your smear, so evidently the NHS thinks its reasonable.

Personally, I've never minded whether it was a male or female HCP but then, I'm fortunate enough to have never suffered male assault, sexual or otherwise. I'm not going to tell any other woman how she should feel. I know that many women have reason to distrust men-as-a-class, and therefore support their right to choose in this matter.

So go back to my earlier suggestion, put on a blindfold. As long as they stay professional why are you bothered?

Actually, I think it is reasonable for a woman to not want to be examined by a male HCP in a non-urgent situation. Considering the rate of male-inflicted trauma and violence in many women's lives, quite a few would probably find a male HCP examining them to be upsetting. Including myself.

either the rate or the many has to go from that sentence else it doesn't make sense.

But really? Violence from strangers is much less common than from people you know.

On the face of it you would think that a lesbian and a transwoman with AGP would hold the same level of concern for a woman. But, for me, they don't. AGP is characterised by the sufferer's fantasy of being a woman in a humiliating situation, it is a victim fetish. The idea of being weak and vulnerable, is what is sexually arousing. There's a deep level of misogyny to it.

The practice nurse at my local surgery is a lesbian, and it doesn't bother me at all.

Actually, I think it is reasonable for a woman to not want to be examined by a male HCP in a non-urgent situation. Considering the rate of male-inflicted trauma and violence in many women's lives, quite a few would probably find a male HCP examining them to be upsetting. Including myself.