Mixed sex wards and trans women.

It's not proficiency, or otherwise, which is causing the debate.

Personally I don't think an HCP needs to be the same sex as their patient to do their job well. I've had intimate exams from women doctors, as well as men, that have been equally painful or unsympathetic.

Yup. I'd love that person to be my HCP, examining my post childbirth body or administering HRT for my post menopausal body. Or doing my mammogram.

Because he evidently understands women, because, you know, he is one...

Someone born with XY chromosomes is, and always will be, male. They can present in a 'feminine' way, they can undergo 'sex change' to approximate to female and be legally recognised as such, but they will always be a male.

It's biological reality.

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I made the mistake of clicking on some of those links. God, it's depressing. Is that truly representative of most transwomen?

Whatever those people are searching for, it's emphatically not womanhood in any sense of what it means to me.

Their pursuit of a hyper feminine, sexualised identity is obsessive. And loaded with misogyny. This man who works with older women...

Man you cannot believe the ugly women that I have to deal with in a daily basis. Their legs so ugly, their breasts terrible and so on, so on. So far I haven't found a single woman that I have felt envy with. So of course if you compare yourself with a twenty year old girl you will be in total disadvantage, but they age real bad...

YY, joystir. Originally I was happy to respect pronouns but my journey of discovery has hardened my position. I have never considered transwomen to be women but didn't want to hurt their feelings.

Now I have come to understand how misogynistic and homophobic is the trans agenda, and that a tiny group of what used to be called transsexuals - men with very severe sex dysphoria - which received widespread and understandable compassion, has been hugely enlarged by the addition of the far more common phenomena of part time cross-dressers and sundry fetishists. The transsexuals who feel compelled to have genital surgery make up only 20% of the total of transwomen. The 80% who keep their penis include the group that pose a potential threat to women.

Males with AGP are not women in any sense. Fetishes are almost unknown among women. Many of us have, however, been the subject of sexual assault. DV and rape. We are taught from childhood to be wary of men when we are in a vulnerable position, so loos, changing rooms and, yes, hospital. Further than that, women are blamed for not being wary enough, for "putting themselves in danger". Expecting, even demanding, that we override our fears for the sake of some bloke's special gender identity is completely outrageous.

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I agree, calling them male is so much easier (and more truthful) - I just wasn't quite sure what might get my posts deleted!

I refuse to name MTF transgender people 'female'. They are men. I refuse to let anyone name me 'cis'. I am WOMAN. Not because I identify so, but because that is my biological reality. I refuse to go away. I refuse to acknowledge my privilege in being born female. And while I'm on my soap box, only women have periods, and only women can carry and bring forth young. I am not being f**g transphobic! I am stating facts. And I will not share women only spaces with men, whether wearing a dress or not.

Please can we all stop with transagenda Newspeak like "trans natal males"?

"Natal males" is redundant, since there is no way to change one's sex which is encoded into every cell in the body.

Males who "feel like" women and want the world to treat them as such are transwomen. They are also males. Not "natal males".

It may look like a small distinction, but it is not.

(I'm not having a go at you, Missi. Your post was just an example)

I don't know if mumsnet is unusual in this, but the number of people who have come on here and said exactly the same as you joy. All of them quite convinced that they would've been considered trans at the time. Very worrying.

I speak as a lesbian who wanted to be a boy when I was a child, And who grew up to be a very happy lesbian who loves her body. Imagine if I was a child now- my lovely PC parents would be encouraging my delusions, referring me for puberty retarding hormones which would permanently sterilise me. Instead of letting me get on with my life wearing trousers and playing in the mud.

joystir59

Exactly. I simply can't understand how or why it's become a protected characteristic to this extent. I'm sure there are very credible trans-people, but a cursory glance on the Internet tells you all you need to know.

I'll never get it.

sex= biological reality, unchangeable. Gender= social construct, generally binary and something feminists have battled against for decades- the assumption that biological females like pink, dolls etc and that biological males like guns, trousers etc. Gender is hurtful to both sexes.
Sex is determined at or soon after birth. You can be male, female or intersex. These are biological states. It isn't possible to change sex- it is part of who you are. The feeling of being 'born in the wrong body' (gender dysmorphia) is a mental health condition. So- men cannot become women. Women cannot become men. Gender is a crock of s*. the mainstreaming of transgenderism as a thing is done to reinforce the patriarchy and keep us all pinned in our binary positions. It is leading to the sterilisation of children who would more than likely grow up to be gay.

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Yes, Reddit's AskTransgender sub is really very enlightening to scroll through. It's quite frightening, to see how so many trans natal males on the internet think women feel and act They honestly couldn't be more wrong!

And I'd be more than happy for a transman to do my smear test. So not transphobic at all.

It's Russian roulette. There is no way of knowing if a transwoman has AGP. In fact they have a massive vested interest in hiding it.

"many late transitioning males do have AGP as a sexual fetish"

True, as can easily be seen on Reddit's AskTransgender sub.

Every once in a while, a new male adult comes in asking "I'm aroused by the thought of myself as a woman. Does that mean I have AGF?" and is met with many replies saying "Me, too! But that's OK because all women are like this".

Like here, here, here, here, here.

The implicit delusion would be sad if it were not scary.

For info: No, women aren't turned on by the thought of having breasts and a vagina, any more than having two arms does. Those are just the body parts we have.

'It's very much due to the fact that a transgender natal male is quite likely to be someone who fetishises my biology in a very unhealthy and misogynistic way.'

So you are stereotyping an entire class of people based on your personal biases.

Pink, 'quite likely' is not the same as saying 'all'. 'Toddlers are quite likely to get fractious if cooped up' leaves plenty of space for all those toddlers who'll spend happy hours playing with the Duplo in a corner.

Pretty sick views on transgender people in this thread.
I don't think so. And we have a transman in the near family, always welcome in my house, no issues there whatsoever, so I know whereof I speak.

Pink and Lass

For the record many late transitioning males do have AGP as a sexual fetish. It's anywhere between 20 and 80% ( depending upon the vested interest of the website you read)

There for between two and 8 out of every 10 transwomen will have it.

It's not the same as a natal born man because the very experience of being in that situation is arousing for them. There kink is such that intimate women's spaces are a sexual goal. It's NOT about whether they are attracted to you FGS.

This is one of the overwhelming reasons why women have a problem. In all women's intimate spaces.

I totally understand Datun's dilemma. The trouble is that there really is no parallel between the sexes. There aren't any group who are likely to find performing intimate procedures on men arousing. Women, however, are subject to quasi medical abuse by sexually motivated HCP and have every right to be cautious. It's one of the reasons doctors are held to such high standards in terms of relationships with patients.

Plus it is all about what it means to exist as an embodied subject in this patriarchal world. We have the biological facts that men are stronger than women and can rape women. We have the social reality that men are violent towards women, do overcome them and rape them. We also know that this happens in the kinds of settings where women and girls are often particularly vulnerable - i.e. in a range of medical / surgical settings. Beyond this, we also know that women who are violated, assaulted and raped are often not believed and that the process of charging offenders is fraught and harrowing (and usually unsuccessful). We know that professionals have power and that challenging their word is extra problematic.

I don't think there is an equivalent for men on the basis of their embodied and gendered selves, simply because men have the upper hand / the power.

Beyond this, there are other facets to being embodied as a woman in a gendered and patriarchal society as well, which do lead many women to wanting female only attendants in intimate medical settings.

Why should 'the feels' and 'psychological reasons be valid when men who look, act and have the bodies of men want to use women's facilities, but women's well-grounded feelings and reasons (see above) for wanting intimate care to be performed by other women and to be in wards only with other women are dismissed as irrational and selfish? Could this be about male privilege, power and patriarchy, do you think?

Yes, that occurred to me too, Queen. I suggested earlier in the thread that women on the same ward as a transman patient who looked like a man could be reassured if staff explained the situation. Then, as I considered it further, I realised that this would be impossible unless the transman agreed. A tricky question.

I totally understand Datun's dilemma. The trouble is that there really is no parallel between the sexes. There aren't any group who are likely to find performing intimate procedures on men arousing. Women, however, are subject to quasi medical abuse by sexually motivated HCP and have every right to be cautious. It's one of the reasons doctors are held to such high standards in terms of relationships with patients.

A friend was sexually assaulted by her GP. It's a very damaging experience.

Sorry, delurking

I think there is absolutely no point whatsoever in engaging with a person that does not understand why a woman might be incredibly traumatised by an intimate examination by a man

Obviously that goes for men who have been sexually assaulted or raped themselves

But surely if the nurse briefed everyone that would break patient confidentiality?

I don't think this is a big problem. If a trans person is sick most doctors and nurses will want to help them in hospital and most other patients will be tolerant and kind.

I would not like to be a mixed sex ward in hospital,. When tried they have been very unpopular and I am glad we have not rolled them out widely. Obviously if it were that or death I'd go for the mixed sex option.
If there is a trans person coming into a ward can people not just use common sense - the nurse have a word with the other patients in advance, get them on side so they aren't shocked when they see a penis on what they thought was an all female ward? If someone is offended on the ward try to make sure those people are in beds away from each other. Trans person keeps the penis largely hidden, common sense stuff.

Pimk, regardless of whether you are a woman with a high degree of internalised misogyny or a man pretending to be a woman online (not trans, I really mean a man pretending to be a woman for his own amusement), you come across in your posts as someone who dislikes women intensely and is extremely dismissive of them.

No Pink, telling women to put on a blindfold if they don't want a strange man access to their vagina is NOT like voting for Trump.

Any woman anywhere in the world would know how outrageous, misogynist, and offensive your remark is.

As has often been said on on MN: Heels don't make a woman, skirts don't make a woman, makeup doesn't make a woman. And neither does the color Pink in one's name.