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Original poster

Mixed sex wards and trans women.

632 replies

sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 17:46

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

OP posts:
OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 24/11/2016 19:31

I personally think the examples chosen are actually good examples of discrimination against trans people and so should rightly be used in awareness raising / education.

However, the belief that doctors have no right to know a person's trans history strikes me as incredibly dangerous, not just from the point of view that doses and medication are different for men and women, but also because the vast majority of trans people will be on a regime of drugs which could have serious side effects. If a doctor is to be kept ignorant of that they could either a) not realise that e.g. testosterone injections are causing the symptoms and b) prescribe something that causes a reaction to a current drug.

Seachangeshell · 24/11/2016 19:29

Glen - I agree with you.
However, the OP is really muddled in her thinking. I've scanned through the document and will read it properly when i have the time. At first glance it doesn't seem that bad I have to say. In fact, it highlights many cases of discrimination against Trans people that sound awful.

glenthebattleostrich · 24/11/2016 19:23

"I'd feel uncomfortable attaching my name to anything that could be seen as "transphobic", which is apparently any criticism of trans. I think it could damage my career"

This stood out to me and tells me why TA's are spitting on women's rights. Because we are all to scared of being labelled bigots. That is currently deemed the worst offence a person can commit these days.

Unless more women stand up and say 'No, we'll join in your fight to access your own spaces but keep the hell out of ours' then we are screwed and because of this after 1st December I honestly think that women will no longer have the right to object anymore.

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:20

Regarding the pre/post op status, that leaflet says that doctors and HCPs have no right to know about a person's trans status. It says that this info may be withheld even if it's against medical advice (i.e. could affect their appropriate treatment).

Therefore, my question is: how are pre/post op trans people identified and sent to appropriate wards?

OP posts:
OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:17

'I was making an assumption that the statement it might be their lesbian status rather than their penis which offended the religious sensibility was a bit disingenuous. Which I should not have.'

You're also assuming that person is a lesbian. Have I missed the bit where it says they are?

Seachangeshell · 24/11/2016 19:17

'Would you disagree with an MTF being on a women's ward?'
If they were pre-operative , yes I would.
If they no longer had a penis , I.e. Post-operative, no I would not object.

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:16

From that example you gave, no sarsley. They could literally just be cross dressing on that day.

Then why did the trans charity produced leaflet describe them as a trans woman?

OP posts:
OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:15

Sorry, I misread. In the example you gave yes they are. It says: 'A trans woman, who is a part-time cross dresser'

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/11/2016 19:14

On the other one , the patient in question knows I'm sure it was their penis not their lesbian status which caused the problem,.'

Which example are you talking about LassWiTheDelicateAir?

I was making an assumption that the statement it might be their lesbian status rather than their penis which offended the religious sensibility was a bit disingenuous. Which I should not have.

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:14

I'm uncomfortable that women will all be stuck on the main ward, irrespective of their clinical need, while transgender patients (who may be in better general health) occupy the few side rooms which are quiet and private.

Where else should they go, though?

OP posts:
Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:13

I think it was more the outrage that a young woman was shocked to be confronted with a penis that I found to be quite entitled.

As I said, GPs and other doctors in non-emergency situations can get their patient seen by a different doctor for sensitive examinations. I stupidly assumed it was similar for HCPs, but I suppose given the predominance of female nurses that would never work in practice. I didn't think it through.

The cases did all accuse trans discrimination, but it is a leaflet produced by a trans charity and there's no actual data on whether those things happened as described.

OP posts:
OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:13

From that example you gave, no sarsley. They could literally just be cross dressing on that day.

Kidnapped · 24/11/2016 19:11

But shouldn't side rooms be allocated on clinical need rather than automatically go to someone who doesn't identify with their biological sex? Side rooms are not plentiful in NHS hospitals.

I'm uncomfortable that women will all be stuck on the main ward, irrespective of their clinical need, while transgender patients (who may be in better general health) occupy the few side rooms which are quiet and private.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/11/2016 19:10

I'm just pointing out you said beards not welcome in gynae wards.

I think there is a debate to be had but all the examples you have picked seem to me that actually the trans person in each case has not been treated respectfully.

The it's against my religion one is , as far as I'm concerned, indefensible in the context of public health provision.

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:10

Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?'

No.

Why not? Aren't they gender fluid?

OP posts:
OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:09

'Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?'

No.

OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:08

'On the other one , the patient in question knows I'm sure it was their penis not their lesbian status which caused the problem,.'

Which example are you talking about LassWiTheDelicateAir?

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:07

Well now I'm mostly just concerned that you, as a medical student, didn't understand that a trans patient who was having a hysterectomy must have been born a woman. Hmm

OP posts:
Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:07

But it is a perceived threat, not an actual threat at all. It's a really bad example OP.
It's completely different from having a biological man with a fully functioning penis on a women's ward.

So would you disagree with a MTF being on a woman's ward?

OP posts:
heebiejeebie · 24/11/2016 19:06

Is a part time cross dresser a trans woman?

OrangeSquashTallGlass · 24/11/2016 19:06

Well now I'm mostly just concerned that you, as a medical student, didn't understand that a trans patient who was having a hysterectomy must have been born a woman.

Seachangeshell · 24/11/2016 19:05

But it is a perceived threat, not an actual threat at all. It's a really bad example OP.
It's completely different from having a biological man with a fully functioning penis on a women's ward.

Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:05

*FTM

OP posts:
Original poster
sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 19:05

She's clearly a woman.. a MTF is presenting as male.

OP posts:
LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/11/2016 19:03

It's more the idea that a bearded person on a female ward, full of women undergoing gynae, should just be accepted without question

You have picked some terrible examples.

This woman is a woman in the xx chromosome sense and given her health problems is very likely to be in a gynae ward.

Bearded lady Harnaam Kaur speaks out about her quest for love | Daily Mail Online
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2563962/I-understand-certain-people-wont-attracted-I-hope-theres-lady-excessive-hair-speaks-quest-love.html