Mixed sex wards and trans women.

The early 90s were a long time ago....! Not sure how that relates to age.

Mid 20s (I did also talk about starting a job and being promoted).

think you might have got my 'some' arse about face but if so proves my point about being careful about wording.

TheMortificadosDragon - what's your point? Some men have it really bad, too. Girls vastly outperform boys at school. Should all men suddenly band together in menism?

We have legitimate issues that we need to address, but not in this way.

Pink

Are you quite young? You talk about the early 90s being a long time ago (for me it feels like five minutes) and talk about teachers treating you in a certain way.

TheMortificadosDragon reminds me off Donald, ...and some are good people.

Teachers encouraged me just as much, professionally I am treated as an equal. We have it better than ever.

Me too, pink. But being a feminist isn't all about me - at some point I realised that things simply aren't as rosy for all women, and 'I'm all right, Jill' doesnt wash.

Datun - there's plenty of women out here who do too ;)

Eh? so why are you posting on a feminist board then?

Datun, I'm one of the people who didn't know that trans could mean no medical treatment. I found out because of MN. All bar two in my friends and family group didn't know either. I think one of the issues that self ID happened quite fast. I honestly think it's a major factor in people not realising what's happening is going as far as, I think, parliament debate this week.

I don't think the average person on the street has a clue and I think media is a big issue here because we have entire articles referring to people by the wrong sex e.g. The runner who I believe was charged with murder recently.

I also feel I can't discuss it outside the friends and family circle, because I realised, from MN, that it's highly controversial. So when you say you can't believe people don't know, I think it's partly because a lot of people who do know are worried about discussing it.

pink

If you can't acknowledged that male socialisation is a reality, due to the fact that you receive no personal disadvantage to you being a woman, then great.

A lot of other women aren't so fortunate. Best not to judge.

kua - I am quite sure it's exactly not posts like mine. And ok, why are you very concerned about that?

Datun - there's plenty of women out here who do too ;)

Pink, how would you suggest the NHS deals with transgender patients?

Oh flip. A woman standing up for women's rights phrases something in a way that can be picked apart and sure as heck, it'll be picked apart. It was obvious what Hermione meant, but when I read it I thought uh-oh. Framing every sentence in a post carefully - never forget the 'some' men and just say men etc etc gets so tedious but not as tedious as the derailing.

The early 90s are already two decades ago.

And yes, stop being so bitter and angry. I don't know about you, but personally I started a job with a guy, and I got promoted first, and no he isn't a fuck up. I have never been put down because I was a girl. Teachers encouraged me just as much, professionally I am treated as an equal. We have it better than ever. So yes, stop being such a victim. No one is going to listen if you just cry and moan about how evil men are.

No, it is posts like yours Pink that do so.
As a woman and a mum of a son I am very concerned that men are choosing to castrate themselves.

And my point is that women like Hermione make it into a slur.

Of course women don't make it into a slur! Men do. Men are much happier with women who AREN'T feminists.

Pink

She said
Male socialisation doesn't end even if they're castrated

Are you reading that as a punishment, for goodness sake?

Gender reassignment IS castration and more. It's the proper term for removal of the testicles.

Whatever 'guys on the Internet' want to call it.

And yes, a lot of women are bloody angry and exceptionally bitter about the way the tide is turning against them. What emotion do you think would be more appropriate?

Should we compromise? Be more collaborative? It's taken decade, after a decade to get the rights we do have. And there is still a massive amount of discrimination towards women, due to male socialisation.

As an example, people often cite the fact that rape within marriage was only made illegal in the early 90s. It took FIFTEEN years to get that law passed. Exactly how many years do you think it would've taken, if women (particularly women with husbands) were voting on that particular law instead of men protecting their conjugal rights?

And my point is that women like Hermione make it into a slur.

You don't have to view yourself as a feminist in order to have a view on trans politics. That said I dislike that that the word feminist is being used as a slur.

For example I've taken Pink's post and replaced feminist with women.

Whenever I try to speak up in situations there will always be some guy (well on the internet there's always a plethora of guys anyway) pointing to things so-called womenhave said, and Hermione sure sounds like one of them, and it's really annoying me. It just sounds bitter and angry and is just hindering us. It's also not constructive

Datun

How you phrased it, is miles from what Hermione wrote, and I think you know that. If she had actually written "males retain their socialisation despite castration surgery (in order to present as a woman)" I would have had no problem. But she didn't. In addition, it still is a huge generalisation, we are talking about sexual offences here that Elendon gave an example and her response was to blame "male socialisation".

Whenever I try to speak up in situations there will always be some guy (well on the internet there's always a plethora of guys anyway) pointing to things so-called feminists have said, and Hermione sure sounds like one of them, and it's really annoying me. It just sounds bitter and angry and is just hindering us. It's also not constructive

PinkIsRad

Hermione said that males retain their socialisation despite castration surgery (in order to present as a woman).

Was it the word castration ? It's the same as 'gender reassignment' surgery except not as severe, as it happens.

I quoted you on that multiple times. It reads exactly as you wrote it.

Eh? I don't think about castrating men and saying that wouldn't be "enough" (enough for what? What are you on about?)

I simply said that castrating men doesn't turn them into women or remove their male socialisation. Both of which are factually correct.

If you've read into my comment that iv got some sort of weird castration fantasy or fixation that I think you're the one who needs to calm down.

HermioneWeasley - yes in my mind someone who thinks about castrating men and saying even that wouldn't be enough, is scum.

pink there are a seemingly endless supply of stories of MTT abusing women and girls that make it factual rather than despicable

Nothing can make a man into a woman.

Here we go again with facts and biology being hateful.

But well done you for being (to your mind) the "right" sort of feminist. Have a cookie.