Mixed sex wards and trans women.

Pink, you said 'But this can be done rationally and factually. Not bitter angrily.'
And I understand why some people call for rational discourse -- but you are the one who was calling people scum!

Trans men with beards have to go somewhere if they need medical treatment.

Trans women with breasts and who may have had GRS (or may not have had it) need to go somewhere.

Is the only option a private room?

hermione

You articulate that so much better than I can. I've been fuming about feminists reaping the rewards of second wave feminism, then sitting back and going, so what?

pink

So I've been doing feminism and fighting for LGBT rights for longer than you've been alive.

I think it's extraordinary that instead of thinking "hang on, here are some of the women who got us things like equality legislation and have bags more life experience than me, perhaps I can learn something" you decide to come on here and tell us how to be the right sort of feminists.

Telling women not to be angry/bitter/aggressive is part of the problem. Part of our societal gender role is to safeguard emotions of others . Well I won't. I'm angry as hell as rights I fought for being rolled back and women and girls suffering, and make no mistake there are ones who have already suffered greatly as a result of the TW are women ideology. I'm more surprised you're not angry frankly as every woman I speak to is appalled.

But being a funfem is so much easier, because it's not threatening to the boys.

So....where do you think trans people should go on wards?
Would you apply any particular criteria as to which section they should go on?

Pink

Rationally and factually

Wear men can become women, compete against him in sport, get scholarships meant for women...

E.g. that boss, may well be a woman, not a man, discriminating against you because you chose to become a mother

So? Ask yourself why??

I was all for 'equalism' in my 20s. I experienced a bit of sexism and discrimination, but not enough to really impact me. I joined the public sector which in general is structured in ways that make it harder to discriminate and did well. It wasn't really until I had children and watched so very many people treat them differently because of their sexes that I realised how skewed the world still was towards men and boys. Oh and how much stereotypes were pushed at them both, limiting their natural individual charateristics into boy = masculine, girl=feminine.

Why shouldn't women be angry? Why is women being even the tiniest bit aggressive about things that affect them seen as so very bad? Being passionate about your beliefs is important, and playing nicely (as girls/women are expected, there is no girl equivalent of 'boys will be boys' applied to them after all) gets us nowhere.

Inb4 one example doesn't prove anything.

You almost sound as if you want PinkRad to have a hard time so you can be proved right.

I am a mother. It did not affect my career. I don't know what "the mummy track" is.

I don't disagree that there are areas we need to work on. But this can be done rationally and factually. Not bitter angrily. Not demonizing men (and even if it isn't meant so, it sounds so). There are some countries (Nordic) where this is already much better, use those as examples. I am not saying there are no issues, I am saying one should go about it in a certain way. E.g. that boss, may well be a woman, not a man, discriminating against you because you chose to become a mother.

PinkRad - As others have pointed out, its easy to think there are no barriers in your early 20s. Wait until you get into your 30s when you (maybe) and your peers start having kids. When you're on the 'mummy track' and being leapfrogged by younger, less able male colleagues or getting over the shitty postnatal care you received, feel free to hop in your time machine and come back to apologise. There are stages in your life when sex (not gender!) inequality suddenly comes into sharp relief. Its so much easier to be a 'fun' libfem, all peace & love, when you are younger and have seen fewer examples of glaring discrimination.

I thought things were fine for women in the early 80s, starting a chemisty PhD ... well, they were for me, I hadn't been inconvenienced by being the only girl in my A level maths and physics sets and one of two in double maths ...it hadn't occurred to me to think why. And here we are in the 21st century and half of 6th forms still have no girls taking physics.

M0stlyHet - yup, I proudly proclaimed that my student union was regressive and sexist in having a women's officer because there was no need for one in the late 1990s...

Perhaps as women gain equality the moment of realisation that we still have so far to go is pushed further back for most women and girls? So girls who always knew that they weren't going to receive an education beyond the age of 15/16 but their brothers did would have realised at a much earlier age than now where on paper it all looks rosy but the glass ceiling is being inched up slowly but is still very much evident, particularly in senior roles.

(BTW Pink, patriarchy doesn't mean that in every circumstance Random Man will do better than Random Woman, such as your example of getting a promotion over your male colleague.)

kua

That tip on replacing feminist with woman is very good. Gets to the root pretty quickly.

Lorelei76

I agree entirely about people simply not knowing. This law will allow a fully intact man who is attracted to women access vulnerable women and children anywhere, based on how he feels.

It needs to keep being said.

Happy to be corrected Ego but a friend who has recently gone through this procedure 9 months ago is having to do it daily. No doubt they'll be relieved when they don't have to do it as often.

However, I stand by stating that I would not wish a family member or friend having to deal with an open wound for the rest of their lives.

*recent
*five

What is autocorrect doing when i actually need it?!

Ah, I never thought that all MtF would have full surgery but I did think at the least they would have chemical castration?

Anyhow, I'm 40, the 90s do seem a lifetime away but interestingly the regression we are experiencing, as women, feels more recnt, about fauve years old maybe. Obv this is all personal experience.

I still can't get past the idea that a person self identifying as a woman feels scared on the male ward but doesn't get why I'd be scared of them on the female ward.

Males that undergo bottom surgery have a life of dealing with an open wound which requires daily dilation

That's not exactly true. It needs taking care of but not daily dilation. Once a week at most as time goes by.

When you interviewed Pink, did the interviewer ask if you were married, or had a steady boyfriend, or if you were thinking of starting a family?

The reason he/she didn't is because the legal framework that feminists fought for - for bloody years - makes it illegal.

However, what you won't be able to stop them from doing is wondering about it. Then interviewing a man and speculating over who might leave first and why.

We still have a long way to go.

The early 90s were a lifetime or more ago to someone in their 20s. But for some of us, at the point marital rape was made illegal, were already married. Since then, I suppose we all thought that the changes would all continue in a positive direction - which is why now, the risk of erosion of womens rights in various ways which are emerging at the moment are deeply concerning us.

kua I don't know, I am not an expert on this, nor have I read into it.

Well yes, I assume there are deep psychological issues involved.

Ironically, I remember thinking "can't be doing with victim feminism, I'm doing alright, look where I've got to" when I was a young woman. That was back in the 80s and 90s! Now I've watched how women are systematically disadvantaged because of our biology, watched friends lose jobs when they got pregnant (because there's a cap on unfair dismissal claims for sex discrimination, and some employers see it as a price worth paying), sat in on police interviews with friends who've been raped and seen how they've been treated... oh, and 46 fucking years after the equal pay act my union is taking my equal pay claim through the courts. I think I grew up some time between the 90s and now. Maybe pink will do the same over the course of the next 20 years.

Well someone who is younger does probably think it's a long time ago. Someone who is older will less so.

If 20 years is 80% of your life span, it's a looong time. If 20 years is 40% of your life span it's much less so.

And in this context I dare say Datun remembers a time when it was much more challenging to be a woman. Something I don't.

Pink you have not answered my question. How do you think the NHS should deal with transgender patients?

I'll answer your question. I would not wish a life of medical treatment on anyone. Males that undergo bottom surgery have a life of dealing with an open wound which requires daily dilation.