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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mixed sex wards and trans women.

632 replies

sarsleypage · 24/11/2016 17:46

I've opened a new account as the old one was too full of personal bits and someone could've connected the dots.

I am a medical student and we have a diversity lecture coming up, so I had a look at the LGBT slides. A lot of this seems to focus on trans.

I got curious about the requirements for sex-segregated wards, as I know this has been an issue for a while. Women want single-sex wards, both on wards for physical illness and those for mental illness, because they see themselves as vulnerable to abuse from men, especially whilst ill.

Fine. Nobody seems to oppose this, and it's become a requirement in pretty much all hospitals.

And then you see this: uktrans.info/attachments/article/5/trasngender_booklet_low%20res.pdf

"• Trans people should be accommodated according to
their presentation: the way they dress, and the name
and pronouns that they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex
appearance of the chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender
recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;
• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for
instance, that pre-operative trans people should not
share open shower facilities); "

There's an example in the leaflet of a young female nurse refusing to wash a trans person because it was against her religion. This is held up as an example of trans discrimination.

I am struggling to square this away with feminism. In fact, I don't think it does square. Women have fought for this segregated space, based on female sexual characteristics (not a preference for make-up, long hair, but XY/vaginas/generally smaller in stature and weaker). But now, apparently, if you decide you feel like a woman, you're entitled to be on a woman's ward when women are at their most vulnerable.

It means if you're sectioned under the mental health act and a trans woman with a penis is on the ward, you have no legal argument to get them removed to make you feel safer.

How is this right?

OP posts:
kua · 27/11/2016 21:57

They must have them ego or how would you prove immunisation etc

ego147 · 27/11/2016 21:55

She said she was then given the choice to have her old records archived so future medics would not have access to them

I really don't think that you can have the choice to have your old records archived so people can't access them.

You have to prove you are transitioning and part of that is getting your GP to change your name. When I did this, I was given a new NHS number - but obviously all my transitioning info, appointments, prescriptions and all communications with the clinic are on there.

I don't think you could transition without doing your name change at the GP and any new records would contain your surgery.

I don't know where my old records are.

kua · 27/11/2016 21:54

I don't know how it works in England but in Scotland the front of the record/electronic and hard copy summarises the main points. Ops,diseases,allergies etc

fakenamefornow · 27/11/2016 21:50

I have half seriously thought I should pretend to be trans to get round this.

fakenamefornow · 27/11/2016 21:48

This whole issue did piss me off. I want one completely irrelevant item removed from my records and this is absolutely impossible and can never happen and she is allowed to dump her entire medical history. Not her fault I know, just unfair in my eyes.

fakenamefornow · 27/11/2016 21:43

BTW, she said she'd declined this as she had some ongoing health issue (separate to trans) that she thought doctors needed to know about.

ego147 · 27/11/2016 21:43

Ego that doesn't quite make sense. Surely any medical professional would see your full medical history

I don't know if they go through all your records. If I was going to see a GP about some issues, I don't think they would always need to know if I was trans. (like they can't tell anyway Grin )

But I always see my usual GP and she has been lovely.

ego147 · 27/11/2016 21:40

Medical / life insurance. My insurance company knows. I've had some fun conversations over that - and it usually leads to them 'having to check'. It's just something you have to do.

That's important because I need it to pay up in the event of death. I have no doubt they would not pay if it was not disclosed.

fakenamefornow · 27/11/2016 21:37

I think this must have been what she was referring to. She said she was then given the choice to have her old records archived so future medics would not have access to them.

Practices must apply to the CCG so a new NHS number and record can be issued. The patient's gender should be changed for all continuing care, but previous records should reflect the patient's original gender.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 27/11/2016 21:36

Same. Xposted with Ego.

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 27/11/2016 21:35

I went to a course recently delivered by a trans women, about trans rights. One thing I learnt was that when people transition they have the option of having their entire medical history archived so that any treating doctor would not know anything of their past.

I wonder how this works with life insurance and travel insurance policies where accuracy and full, honest disclosure are needed for actuaries to cost your policy (e.g. history of smoking, relevant conditions). If you need to claim, will the insurer have access to your old medical records too or do you get to conceal a history of drug & alcohol abuse, serious illness etc in the same way as it seems trans with criminal convictions can shake off an inconvenient past? Or is it failure to disclose, potentially voiding a policy?

kua · 27/11/2016 21:30

Sorry crost posts

kua · 27/11/2016 21:29

Ego that doesn't quite make sense. Surely any medical professional would see your full medical history.

ego147 · 27/11/2016 21:27

I am not sure that medical records can be changed.

This is from GP online

www.gponline.com/medico-legal-treating-transgender-patients/article/1284580

"Problems with records were the most common reason for complaint, including patients who wanted their previous gender and all references to their gender reassignment to be deleted from the record.

Patients are entitled to challenge the validity of records and to have factual errors corrected, but medical records need to reflect accurately the treatment and care provided.

An entry should not be amended because the patient objects to it, although it may be possible to add a note to reflect the patient's view. Patients can also ask for certain information to be kept confidential."

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 27/11/2016 21:26

m0stly

Thats was one of the best books we read at book club

Scary as you could see it happening,

ego147 · 27/11/2016 21:23

One thing I learnt was that when people transition they have the option of having their entire medical history archived so that any treating doctor would not know anything of their past

News to me. Personally I would trust medical professionals to know my past IF it is relevant to any diagnosis. I do think you have to have complete trust in a medical professional and they need to know about a past - if it is relevant to health.

kua · 27/11/2016 21:22

Flowers Fake

FloraFox · 27/11/2016 21:20

Pink's comments are very shallow and uninteresting. It's a shame they're derailing the thread.

fakenamefornow · 27/11/2016 21:13

Am quite tempted to pretend to be trans to see how quickly/what type/level of services I get.

I went to a course recently delivered by a trans women, about trans rights. One thing I learnt was that when people transition they have the option of having their entire medical history archived so that any treating doctor would not know anything of their past.

I have an item on my medical records that I really don't want anybody to know, I want this item removed. I have been told it has absolutely no relevance to my future health or medical treatment. I have also been told that it is impossible to ever have this entry removed. I can't bear for anybody to know this information and so as a consequence have not had a GP for nearly 10 years. If I was trans, this entry could be gone.

M0stlyHet · 27/11/2016 19:24

Oleanna, one of the things I'm blown away by is that these women are professional women with a lot to lose. I'm not sure I'd have their guts (especially one who is a government scientist - Trump is pretty anti-science, and anti public sector, and would be quite capable of instigating a witch hunt against those in the public sector who've taken part in political campaigning for the other side, even if it was done "off the clock"...) Most admirably of all, these women really are the opposite of the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. After all, in their 50s, they don't need reproductive rights any more - they're doing this purely because they care about women, and about standing up for what is right.

OlennasWimple · 27/11/2016 18:26

Yy M0stlyHet - I'm in the US too, and was talking to the mother of one of my good friends. She is planning to attend the march too, and as a veteran of things like the Vietnam protests is telling my friend not to come (and definitely not to bring her DC). She is at a stage where she doesn't care so much what happens to her, but worries that an arrest record will stymie her daughter's life chances - particularly under a Trump government Sad

Pink - I think you misunderstand the anger of many posters. It's not that we think all men are evil, nasty people (many, if not all of us, have wonderful men in our lives who we love dearly). It's that men as a class still have an upper hand over women as a class for no reason at all except that we are still living in a patriarchy. Do you tell black people that they sound a bit angry about racial inequality, even though there are lots of laws providing them some degree of protection? Or do you maybe tell them that Black Lives Matter should be renamed All Lives Matter?

Elendon · 27/11/2016 18:11

Power, full power, to those women Het who are organising this march. Great post, totally agree regarding your analysis of the Handmaidens Tale. It's gone before we fully realise, though there is a character who is like Pink in that tale. Her life is not one I would want to live either, though she gets her makeup and clothes. No woman's life in that book is a picnic.

Power to the females!

illegitimateMortificadospawn · 27/11/2016 18:05

Very sobering post, M0stlyHet, but an important one.

The election of Trump in the US is a massive worry for women's reproductive rights, but we should never be complacent here in the UK considering that women in one of our devolved administrations do not share equivalent rights with other women in the UK.

Similarly, family planning clinics are so short of funding and so many GPs are deskilled in fitting IUDs, there is already a form of rationing of contraceptive options in the rest of the UK. When DH and I were ready to start TTC with #2, I had to wait 6 weeks for an appointment to get my coil removed as my GP wouldn't/couldn't do it. Hmm

Elendon · 27/11/2016 18:05

Wards are mixed, apart from maternity and gynaecology. No mtf will be in a maternity ward, though some gynaecology wards are attached to maternity wards.

There are bays, which are sex segregated. I cannot image that the few side wards available will only go to trans - I would see the males on the wards kicking off about this. There would have to be at least one male in a side ward, this keeps the peace.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 27/11/2016 17:43

If you find it impossible to be a feminist without being dismissed I would suggest this is to do with how you express yourself, Pinkisrad, rather than anything intrinsic to feminism. Having originally been interested in what you, as a new poster, had to contribute I've reached the point where I can't take you seriously. Debate reveals so much, character as well as insight.