Mixed sex wards and trans women.

Yet if it's been recommend practice since 2009 and we haven't heard too much of it in the press, then perhaps it's working out ok? If transgender people represent 600 per 100,000 (0.06%) of people, of whom 80% were male at birth, then 0.048% of people are MtF trans.

Then you'd have to see how many male patients are treated each year (biological sex) to see many MtF trans people statistically are treated, then see how many women are treated each year also. My phone is playing up so I'll split my post.

I doubt it will be too long.

Utter insanity.

< sits back and awaits the lawsuits>

Quite.

It's a rapist's dream come true basically

Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns that
they currently use.
It does not depend upon their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;

The way they dress and preferred pronouns? Thats it? So a male 'crossdresser' who presented himself as 'Mrs Doubtfire' would be slung in with the females? Am I reading this correctly?

When I read "Hospitals don't treat anyone on their looks but by their biology", I understood that treatment to refer to medical treatment, not use of pronouns.

Medical treatment would be determined according to sex, which doesn't change, and not according to makeup, heels, and preferred pronouns.

However, the guidelines are still for sex segregation they just didn't figure "feelz" into it. Which is quite mad when you think about it...

Thanks Lougle. I guess the core guidelines safety , dignity and respect have gone out the window for women then!

Forgot to add the link here

" kua Tue 29-Nov-16 15:29:09

Hospitals are rightly segregated by sex. So transwomen in male wards and transmen in females.

Hospitals don't treat anyone on their looks but by their biology."

Kua, I think you're mistaken there. The 2009 DOH document Annexe E states:

Delivering same-sex accommodation for trans people and gender variant children
Transsexual people, that is, individuals who have proposed, commenced or completed reassignment of gender, enjoy legal protection against
discrimination. In addition, good practice requires that clinical responses be patient-centred, respectful and flexible towards all
transgender people who do not meet these criteria but who live
continuously or temporarily in the gender role that is opposite to their natal sex. General key points are that:

• Trans people should be accommodated according to their presentation: the way they dress, and the name and pronouns that
they currently use.
• This may not always accord with the physical sex appearance of the
chest or genitalia;
• It does not depend upon their having a gender recognition certificate (GRC) or legal name change;

• It applies to toilet and bathing facilities (except, for instance, that pre-operative trans people should not share open shower facilities);
• Views of family members may not accord with the trans person’s wishes, in which case, the trans person’s view takes priority. "

So with the exception of open bathing facilities, shared toilets, etc., would be expected for a MtF transindividual on a female ward.

I have to take issue with this statement made earlier in the thread.

Your example about a sectioned patient having to stay on a ward with a trans person with a penis is utter pie in the sky.

People detained under the mental health act have rights, and a voice and the option to move wards if they felt unsafe about ANYTHING.

This is absolutely and categorically false and has been the experience of at least three people I know who have had recent (in the last year) stays on MH wards in various parts of the country. On every single occasion, the woman expressing fear about the behaviour of the FtT people were told that they were being bigoted toward them and that they were in the wrong. This includes the woman who had a FtT person in the cubicle opposite her who masturbated at her whenever she returned to her bed space and the other woman who had been sexually assaulted by the FtT.

The second point is that the idea that there are beds on other MH wards is what is pie in the sky here. Women who are detained under the MHA are often as not incarcerated a very long way from their families because there simply are no neds on acute wards for women. In a recent example here, a woman was placed on a ward over 300 miles away from her children and family, because it was the ONLY bed in the country available. How exactly does anyone expect a woman who is experiencing acute MH problems to stand up for herself in these circumstances? When, if they do, they are bigots (which stays on their medical records) and even if they are moved, it might be to the other end of the country from their support systems?

Ego transmen are biologically women of course they should be on female wards. I don't know how much clearer you expect me to be.

"Do you think that trans men should go on female wards then? Beards, muscles, deep voices etc."

Are you suggesting that if women (female humans) who dont conform to stereotypes of femininity are acceptable on a ward for women (female humans!), then actual men (male humans) should be allowed to if they adopt stereotypically feminine behaviours/appearance?

I hope thats not what youre suggesting because that would be seriously misogynistic and lesbophobic. Not to mention also illustrative of unexamined male entitlement.

And for the billionth time, if the problem is male violence then surely that needs to be sorted out rather than forcing women to put up with men in women's spaces?

And you know, I don't see forcing women to put up with men in women's spaces as a step towards reducing male violence, rather the opposite. It just means that there are fewer restrictions on male violence.

Sort out male violence, ego. We're shoulder to shoulder with you on that.

I havent ever seen any evidence that males who identify as females are subjected to the same sort and level of male violence as women are. Can you link to any evidence, ego? Otherwise, youre just asking for male feelings to be prioritised over female safety. Is that your argument?

The difference, ego, between having a woman (i.e. a female human) on a male ward and a trans woman (i.e. a male human) on a male ward is that its only the latter who belong there.

Where is the evidence that males who identify as women are more at risk of violence on a male ward than males who dont identify as women?

How's about transmen and women who have undergone bottom surgery go in the same ward as the gender to which they have transitioned; everyone else (trans or not) goes in the ward of their biological sex.

Same with prisons, same with toilets.

I'm fine with males being on a male ward, regardless of how they identify.

ego, you are saying it is not safe for you to be in the same hospital ward as a man.

We are saying that it is not safe for us to be in the same hospital ward as a man.

Your rights do not trump ours. You don't get to escape from the potential for male violence while at the same time introducing the potential for male violence into a female space. Why do we have to share with a man when you are adamant that you cannot share with a man?

But you don't seem to get that. I don't think you are ever going to get that.

If they are segrated by sex, it is for reasons of comfort and safety.

So transwomen in male wards and transmen in female

So can you explain how a transwoman would feel safe in a male ward? Are they safer than a woman in a male ward?

If you are happy with having transwomen in a male ward, then surely you're happy with a woman in a male ward?

What's the difference?

And of course - sexual violence is overwhelmingly committed by men so why is it unacceptable to some that transwomen - especially those who have transitioned go in a side room?

Do you think that a trans woman who has transitioned is safe in a male ward?

Hospitals are rightly segregated by sex. So transwomen in male wards and transmen in females.

Hospitals don't treat anyone on their looks but by their biology.

Of course. Why wouldn't I

Because a trans man looks male.

So you'd be happy to have a trans man on the ward with you?

Of course. Why wouldn't I?

Where should a transman go for a hysterectomy? Or ovarian cancer? A men's ward?

And where should a transwoman go for a vasectomy? Or prostate surgery? A women's ward?