Mixed sex wards and trans women.

Actually, I have seen numerous references online and in conversation about the discomfort and embarrassment men experience during prostate exams. So it's not only women,Datun, though we get more of them, what with pregnancy and smears, as well as other gynae things.

It can be a positive thing. A friend of mine had a very tricky pregnancy and delivery at a teaching hospital. She agreed with having trainees around and told me that, having been desperately self-conscious all her life, she now felt immune. My fanny has been seen by so many strangers it might as well be playing the Royal Albert Hall, she said.

JigglyTuff

Yes! It happened.

www.ourbodiesourselves.org/2012/09/conversations-we-shouldnt-still-be-having-pelvic-exams-under-anesthesia/

Years ago, my mum told me that her friend's son who became a doctor begged his mother and sisters not to give their body for medical research because of the lack of respect so many of his fellow students treated female cadavers.

I can well believe women were routinely internally examined without their consent

Prawn

Yes I know nothing can realistically be done. It's also what Olennas said - the men among them just wouldn't understand that although for them it is entirely a medical and learning issue, for a woman there is a boundry that is crossed.

Most women have smear tests, and if they have children, over the years umpteen people get a birds eye view. It doesn't make it any easier. There is, for me at any rate, always a sense of a deliberate disassociation in my head. (knowing that for them it's routine and they see hundreds every week). Nonetheless it is only women feel this.

Was there an equal scandal, I wonder, of junior doctors routinely practising prostate exams on an unconscious men?

Are women routinely asked if a junior doctor can have a quick practice?

I have been asked a fair few times if 'trainees' can do stuff to me in hospital. I always say yes as they have to learn on someone, plus for stuff such as blood tests they tend to be gentler than others. I had one internal done by a trainee when pregnant and he made it as comfortable as possible for me. None of the pain I got from the long term qualified people anyway. They care more about doing things right when training it seems

Datun as I recall there was a huge scandal at the time. However, given the circumstances, prosecuting anyone was impossible. How would anyone possibly prove if it happened to a specific patient and, if some junior doctors were present in theatre, which of them might have performed an examination. It wasn't even considered illegal at the time so prosecuting a bunch of well-meaning doctors 20 years later was in no one's interest.

I've been asked to consent to a junior doctor practicing an internal

to think about historical practice. How did it happen? Well, the good thing about seeing a doctor for gynae issues is that they tend to just think of you as a problem to be fixed so there is nothing sexual involved in the examination. The bad thing is that they tend to just think of you as a problem to be fixed so forget that you are a person with boundaries that need consent to be breached

This is really nagging at me now. Why wasn't there a massive scandal? Wasn't it being treated as historical sex abuse?

And how DO Junior doctors learn about internal exams? Are women routinely asked if a junior doctor can have a quick practice?

Actually, to all intents and purposes that is sexual assault, surely!

treaclesoda

'fairly routine'. Dear God. What on earth bred that attitude?

Luckily (as I now realise) I wasn't under anaesthetic for either of my two, but the 'top man' for the area was a twat of the first order. He seemed to have nothing but contempt for the women he was treating. Made my blood boil at the time, but what can you do when you are so reliant, and in such a vulnerable situation?

yes, as treacle says.

There was a harrowing post once on here, where a woman in another thread had some memories from an operation when she was younger (18ish I think), which she didn't understand, then someone mentioned that this happened, and it all clicked into place for her.

The junior doctors thing is that it used to be the case that if you were under anaesthetic for a gynae treatment, junior doctors were allowed to practice doing internal exams, and no one thought it important enough to ask for the patient's consent.

There was a big scandal about it maybe 20 years ago, as it was apparently fairly routine. Pretty sure it has been stamped out, but the fact that it happened in the first place is outrageous.

Also the whole reason this has suddenly become so concerning, is because of Maria Miller's crusade to eliminate the criteria for becoming trans. If we don't see an upsurge in people identifying as the opposite sex, for all sorts of reasons, I'll be very surprised.

Hell, how many women have realised that they've had things done to them (in the course of 'education' for junior doctors) while they were under anaesthetic? How many women has it happened to, and they didn't realise?

What does this mean?!! (Ugh - not sure I want to know...)

fakenamefornow yes, I've said that in my post this morning.

I don't want to fear monger, but I am thinking about this.

I've worked with someone who was subsequently found to have planted cameras in the toilets, and was eventually prosecuted for raping underage girls (and I thank God I stayed away at Christmas parties, because, whilst I thought he was a bit strange, it was my first job and I was making an effort to fit in and be friendly with everyone, and he didn't seem that odd). Now, this guy, he wasn't stupid, more than once he got a bit closer than I liked in the lunch room for example. If he was on a ward, I've no doubt that it would be subtle enough that you wouldn't really have anything to report - when you were sleeping, or still groggy from a procedure.

Hell, how many women have realised that they've had things done to them (in the course of 'education' for junior doctors) while they were under anaesthetic? How many women has it happened to, and they didn't realise?

Those guidelines are scary. It literally says that a bloke can put on a dress and be put on a women's ward if he's convincing enough.

So 6.82 million male admissions = 3127 MtF trans admissions.

One problem, wouldn't MtF trans be recorded as female admissions and appear in female stats.

You're right, of course, Cote. So it's more like one in 11 wards.

Having said that, I don't think anyone should pay attention to my posts of last night, because thinking about it further, presumably the MtF admissions were all counted as female in the first place, and the FtM admissions were counted as male, so if you calculate from admission numbers, you're counting transgender admissions twice.

Was that autocorrect or freudian?

T popularization population

Also, I don't think you can average T popularization over the entire UK. As with LGB, I would also assume to T be far more likely to live in large cities.

Ok, a B+ on account of the error.

"If transgender people represent 600 per 100,000 (0.06%) of people"

I think there is a decimal error there. 600/100,000 = 0.6%.

That sounds like an improbably high ratio, by the way. Maybe if you include any man who has ever contemplated putting on mascara, numbers would come to that.

for Lougle for doing the sums.

Ok 6.82 million male admissions in 2013-14 and 8.68 million female admissions. content.digital.nhs.uk/article/6053/Hospital-inpatient-care-almost-900-more-admissions-per-day-compared-to-previous-year

So 6.82 million male admissions = 3127 MtF trans admissions.

For every 1 MtF transgender admission, there would have been 2776 female admissions.

Taking a standard 6-bed, 4 bay ward with 2 side rooms, totaling 26 beds, There would be one MtF transgender person per 107 wards.

So while there will be situations that need to be sensitively handled, I think that it will be quite statistically uncommon.

source of transgender statistics