Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

I don't see the point of that anecdote. It was a non-threatening situation, you didn't feel threatened. There were plenty of people around, you weren't alone, and it sounds like he was going about his business rather than, say, standing there staring at you with an erection. I don't tend to be creeped out in non-creepy scenarios either, but unfortunately that's not the only kind of situation that happens.

Allpart, if it is so easy for anyone to just report when they feel someone has overstepped the mark and threatened them in a changing room, then why can't transwomen in men's changing rooms just do that?

It's a genuine question. But for ease of use, I'll give you a clue. Male violence. Because you know and we know that the problem is male violence. And the answer that you propose is the same one that there has always been - women need to accommodate it. Transwomen are making the same assessment that women make - I am safer in women only spaces. Ironically, this reasoning makes the spaces unsafe for everyone, due to the reasons that PPs have pointed out above, that they are now unpoliceable.

The secondary element is one of validation for transwomen - if they're not in the women's spaces, then they feel they're not being viewed as authentic. They're entitled to want that. But we're also entitled to say, no, we don't consent to that. Women are allowed boundaries.

And I'm not a pearl clutcher. This morning, I changed in a unisex changing room (individual cubicles). And I was just dandy. But when other women tell me they aren't, I listen to them and I try to be empathetic to their reasons. I don't just tell them they're making a fuss.

All
It's interesting that you have no consideration for women at all but trans people need all the consideration in the world.

And please use paragraphs, it breaks up your stream of consciousness

Oh whatever. Fine. You will go off and have your little ladies lunch club crying about the big bad men. I'll actually get on with my life. Not every man is out to rape you. And I pity your lives if that's how you think.

Ignorance is one thing. And being opinionated is another.

The alchemy when the two are combined is breathtaking.

There ARE laws in place to prevent it. 🙄

So you are suggesting that these people have no one else in their life at all who can vouch that they are gender fluid. They suddenly just decided that the day without anyone in their entire world being able to back that up. I don't think so somehow. if someone is gender fluid enough to brazenly walk into a female changing room with a penis out and claim that they are a woman, then they are clearly comfortable enough to have people in their life who know that about them.

Are you seriously suggesting that every single restaurant, shopping centre, leisure centre, gym, school, workplace, every single public place that has toilets in the entire country, create a separate one just for transgender gender fluid people. You seriously think that that is workable?

I took my daughter to a swimming pool a few months ago, we went into the female changing room, found a curtain off section and got changed, came out and there were half a dozen women walking around in various stages of undress, and one random middle-aged man. I only saw him very briefly, I can't even remember what really was happening, whether he was just walking through or had got changed in there, I'm not really sure, it didn't really affect me because we were already changed and have done so in the private cubicle, but he obviously shouldn't have been in there. I'm not sure exactly what he was doing, whether he was lost, or whether he was arrogant enough to just think he could go in there, or whether he was indeed trying to look at women, I don't really think it was that because he then walked into the same swimming pool with the rest of us and sat with his wife and just swam like everyone else was. It was hold him being in there, but it wasn't scary, it wasn't creepy. Had I been in there longer and seen him walking around, I would have had no problem saying to him I think you are in the wrong room. If I didn't feel I could do that I would have had no problem going out and getting a member of staff. He was in his swimming trunks, but not naked and flashing anyone from what I saw. But it certainly wasn't this huge traumatic terrifying event from my POV. Maybe the other women felt uncomfortable as they may have been in that room longer with him or undress when he was there, I didn't see, it was only a split second that I saw him. But are we really so delicate as a sex that we can't say to someone you are in the wrong place, what are you doing? I was with my dad at the time and when I saw my dad in the pool I said to him that guy was just in the ladies changing room. And even he just went huh? And we all got on with our lives. Yeah he shouldn't have been there but I just concluded he was confused and followed his wife. I didn't get PTSD from it.

Wouldn't it be great if there really were repercussions for every sex crime committed
All the time feminists focus on that, we could put into other issues.

I'm kind of weirded out that AllPart can be so open-minded when it comes to men seeing her naked and when it comes to women say "But I've never been one of these woman who is happy to wander around a changing room butt naked bold as brass anyway, even in front of women I'll keep a towel around me or go into a cubicle and frankly I wish they'd all do that because I hate sitting to put my shoes on and there's some big old hairy muff in my face, frankly I'd rather see a penis if I had to choose!

'there will always be repercussions available for that.'

--in theory, but in practice only a tiny number of flashes, gropes, peeping toms etc are punished. None of mine have. Most I didn't report, the one I called the police on was long gone by the time the police got there. The one who groped me on a North Sea ferry would have been able to identify if the crew had listened to me but they didn't.
And as for rapists, I know many women who have been raped but literally only one whose rapist was convicted.

Mostly there are no repercussions and it is naive to think there are.

They don't want to their sex determined by a panel of medical "experts" at huge cost and time and effort and painful medical intervention

they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove.

How would you prove it without being accused of transphobia?

How could you prove someone has flashed you purposefully rather than just walk about with their female penis?

Why should there be reprocussions for the aftermath of perverts taking advantage rather than laws in place to stop it in the first place?

What is the issue with having a separate space for transgender people exactly?

but that's the point, someone who does throw on a dress for the day just to leave in a changing room obviously isn't trans, they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove

Interesting. How would you do that exactly?

No it wouldn't be incredibly easy to prove because 100% self identification means no requirement for consistency. They can claim gender fluidity.

Do you really think it's likely Danielle Muscato and their ilk (I say their because quite a few transwomen think he/she is trolling and it's not for me to judge) are going to get beaten up in the men's toilet?

Oh fuck off with the AS bullshit just because you can't cope with someone disagreeing with the almighty MNMilitia. 🙄

Elsa but that's the point, someone who does throw on a dress for the day just to leave in a changing room obviously isn't trans, they're a creep taking advantage and that would be incredibly easy to prove. Whatever their biological makeup, whatever their gender identity, whatever their sexuality, if someone is staring at you in a changing room, flashes you purposefully, or flashes a child, touches you against your wishes or intimidates you that will always be illegal and there will always be repercussions available for that. You can't stop someone who genuinely identifies as a woman from using a woman's changing room, force them into a man's one where they could get harassed or beaten up, because some creep who was doing that already continues to and now says I'm a girl as he does it. I really cannot see any genuine negatives to a change in laws. I can see unfounded fears and scaremongering, but no risks that don't already exist and no reason to not move forwards because of a few nasty creeps who will unfortunately always exist and are a separate issue.

Allpartoftheplan you sound naive.

Xenophile

Thanks for the AS tip.

All being transgender now can be simply throwing a dress on for a day. That's what everyone is upset about.

The laws the trans activists are fighting for are for transgender people to use services that are there already, not for specialist services for transgender people.

I don't think anyone on this thread would disagree that there needs to be services for transgender people, in fact I know a few people have really spoken up on other threads in support of specialist help, but latching into services that are already there and denying that transgender people have had different experiences than 'cis' (sorry) people is detrimental to everyone.

Well I don't know what world you lot are living in but I'm glad I'm not in it, it sounds fucking terrifying to be constantly thinking everyone is out to get me and flash me and rape me. I frankly couldn't care less if you believe me or not, I have survived all the things I have, maybe that's why I understand that not every single guy I come across is a potential rapist and the vast majority are just normal alright people, I'm not scared to use mixed changing rooms, I have no choice at my local leisure centre and never had a problem, nor have I felt anyone was going to jump out and flash my daughter. Maybe I'm stupid enough to think I'm not that desirable that every single man can't comtrol his violent animalistic urges around me, I don't know know, but all of this conversation, knowing my couple of trans friends and having spoken to them about things like this in the past, all they want to do is have a wee and get changed without people beating them up and harassing them, like everyone else does, that's all. They are not the problem and punishing them for a few creeps out there who don't care about laws past, present or future, is not the answer. They don't want to their sex determined by a panel of medical "experts" at huge cost and time and effort and painful medical intervention, they just want to be who they are. You go on an airplane and use the loo there don't you? Are they male and female?? Have you had any problems caused by a change in laws there?? No. 🙄 The trans guys I know look like the sex they identify with, granted some more convincingly than others, but it's a permanent look, not sticking on a bit of loopy and declaring I'm a woman today! If someone were doing that they'd be caught in no time! And wouldn't get away with it because it would very quickly and easily be established whether they're lying! Being trans isn't throwing on a frock for the day, it's an entire identity, a full lifestyle, one where they get harassed constantly, they don't undertake that lightly. I'm sorry you don't understand that and frankly he's, you do sound like squawking ladies clutching your leas when you say "but a man may LOOK at me!!!!" Yeah, he might, probably has without you knowing previously, might do again one day without you knowing, because that's the whole point, they don't want to get caught, they don't want you to know, if they're brazen enough to openly walk into the changing room and do it then they're already breaking a few laws, reducing That by 1 isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. The first penis I saw was a flasher on the Metropolitan Line, had nothing to do with laws and he'd probably still do it today, because he's a dirty sick little creep on a power trip, he doesn't care about laws, he cares about his own entitlement. This law won't encourage someone who isn't like that to do that, it's the same ones who will carry on, they'll always be a problem and are an entirely separate issue, it just protects transgender people who need it now. Honestly I feel like I'm arguing with Trump supporters. I really did not expect MNers to have this attitude at all.

Elsa I agree there aren't enough services and resources to deal appropriately with trans issues like sexual assault etc, which is EXACTLY why new laws which protect members of the trans community are so desperately needed. I really can't understand why you seem to disagree with that and I'm trying to, you're obviously qualified to siscuss this from a personal POV.

Allpart.. "big hairy old muff"..."silly squawking"... "get over it".. "nooo dear" - you don't like women much do you?

AS here as there are enormous inconsistencies in story on almost every thread.

Oh yes - I see what you mean!

There's a definite cohort very fond of the use of the word 'dear' (nooooo dear) which does make me smile. Personally I prefer my patronisation to be a little more imaginative, and a little less teenage.

All I envy your very simplistic view of the issues surrounding this.

I see it from all sides

I see the effect that things have on my transgender child.

Things such as the school trying to force my child into changing rooms and toilets of the sex they present as currently because of their inclusively policy and my childs gender identity disorder no longer being treated by the mental health team because we refused blockers and it's not inclusive to treat it as a mental health issue.

I also have daughters and a son.

I don't want to send my daughter into school, or to a party at the swimming pool and have a boy or a man being able to flash at them because they have decided minutes before that they want to identify as a woman for an hour.

I don't want my son to be in a position where he could be vulnerable to an accusation by being naked in the same place as someone who is biologically female either.

We were in a refuge for a while they aren't equipped to deal with transgender people, they just aren't. They don't have the knowledge or specialist help that transgender people need, they can't access the services or specialist funding or charity help.

If my child were to be sexually assaulted there would be a whole layer of other issues surrounding that due to the gender identity issues my child has that a rape crisis centre wouldn't be equipped to deal with.

Transgender people need their own safe spaces with specialist help.

Being inclusive helps a very tiny minority, it also helps an increasing number of people to exploit vulnerable people, people like my child don't want to be completely included, they want privacy as much as everyone else does and they want specialised help and services that can actually help and understand their issues, not pretend their life experiences don't matter.

This isn't rocket science.

I agree. I want people to be informed. They don't have to take my word for it. Just do 20 minutes worth of reading. That's all it takes.

I don't know if it's just lack of logic/intelligence or plain old goadiness that makes some people repeat opinions over and over with nothing to back them up.

what a revolting post allpartoftheplan

mmmmmm I've never heard a biological woman speak / write with quite those apologist sentiments before, let alone the demeaning and misogynistic turns of phrase (pearl-clutching) in the context being used by allpart. In fact, I get a strong whiff of tumblr / reddit ...