Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

It's the inner person who scares or comforts me, not their appendage.

Countess I don't know about you but I tend to not look down when I see a naked person, male or female, so all I'd try to see is their waist up. In the example of Buck Angel if I didn't know who he was I'd assume man, all working man parts and all, and I'd be more confused with him being in the ladies than looking down to check what sex he was born as! With Lea T or the others again at a first glance which is about as much as I'd give anyone in a changing room I'd assume woman. So if she were in the men's room presumably at first glance they'd think woman too. Then knowing some men they would try and make funny comments, eventually realise they were chatting up a "man" and hey presto there's that male violence we want to avoid.

Elsa because I identify as a woman, not a man! The trans women group you were talking about identify as women, so why would I be scared?

If you and I were in the women's room and I was staring at you and making Hannibal Lecter sucky noises and jacking off you'd still be protected

Great. Then if a transwoman is in the men's and a bloke's staring at them and being threatening, they're protected too aren't they?

How do you tell the difference between a "safe" penis and an unsafe one, since under self-declaration anyone will be able to get their dick out in the women's changing room?

Anything at all you say about women being able to call for help, use a cubicle etc is going to apply equally to transwomen in the men's. There are also long lists of occurrences of biological males attacking women in toilets / changing rooms etc, but nobody ever seems able to provide a similar list of incidents in the men's.

A lot of people respond to this with "but these men aren't really trans", but that's the point of self-declaration isn't it? They are if they say they are and how the hell are women meant to tell the difference anyway?

A little thought experiment, All. Let's imagine that your trans woman in the male changing rooms is instead my flamboyantly gay male best friend.

"I don't think it's the actual act of getting undressed that is the problem, it's walking in, as an obviously gay man, getting a locker, finding a cubicle, changing in there knowing all those guys are outside probably waiting to jump you, maybe it's just a curtain rather than a locking door, then coming back out, putting your clothes away and leaving, then all that again on the way back plus having a shower... you yourself said, male violence".

Should he be in the woman's changing room too, on the basis that he will be less at risk of homophobic violence there? Because he would be. But the solution is tackling male homophobic violence, because that's what is threatening your trans friends and my gay friend. And all the accommodations in the world that women could make won't solve that. The only thing that solves that is tackling male violence and homophobia.

Allpartoftheplan I would be genuinely interested to know if you would make any distinction between male presenting and female presenting transwomen.

Buck Angel is an incredibly macho looking transman. As a woman, she was a lesbian. She has not had any srs.

I agree, she may get a funny look. She is a born a woman and does not have male pattern violence, and will also need to use any menstrual facilities. I would have no more problem with her than I would with any other woman, lesbian, butch lesbian or otherwise.

Datun I get what you keep hammering on about over and over and over again but if the lads from The Inbetweeners walked into a woman's changing to gawp at the women and you or I caught them and told them to fuck off and gave them a quick round here, and the police walked in and asked him what the hell they thought they were playing at, and they turned round and said "oh we're women officer!" you SERIOUSLY thing the police will just say " okay ladies, no problem, off you go!" Come on! Don't be silly. If you and I were in the women's room and I was staring at you and making Hannibal Lecter sucky noises and jacking off you'd still be protected and I've got the equipment to prove I'm a woman ffs.

And if a load of trans women were in the women's changing room with their penises (peni??) out I think they'd be more concerned about me than the other way round! I honestly don't think I'd be scared, just because they have a penis doesn't mean they want to use it on me.

So why would you feel uncomfortable in the male changing room then?

I would rather share with Buck Angel than Danielle Muscato!
Don't know anything about the other tw you mentioned but the one who self advertises as a sex worker with a seven inch surprise is also pretty - I don't think looks are really relevant.

All my child respects that people won't feel comfortable, and also doesn't feel comfortable themselves and uses accessible toilets and facilities.

We plan around that.

There have been the very rare occasion where my child has used the toilet of the sex they present as, however we have strategies in place for that to be as quick and respectful as possible.

It's not difficult.

You aren't listening to the people saying that the transgender people who have been quietly and respectfully been going about their business with little attention for years aren't the issue, they have been dragged into it by the people who are using being transgender as the latest bandwagon to jump on and gain some notoriety in their lives.

People like my child are being harmed by the trans activists demanding this that and the next thing on their behalf and now my family is being forced to choose which side to be on because TRA have made it so there is no neutral ground anymore.

A trans woman goes into the male changing room and there's a chance she's going to get smacked or at least get some nasty comments.

Like this transwoman?

Pooch I don't think it's the actual act of getting undressed that is the problem, it's walking in, as a woman, getting a locker, finding a cubicle, changing in there knowing all those guys are outside probably waiting to jump you, maybe it's just a curtain rather than a locking door, then coming back out, putting your clothes away and leaving, then all that again on the way back plus having a shower... you yourself said, male violence.

And if a load of trans women were in the women's changing room with their penises (peni??) out I think they'd be more concerned about me than the other way round! I honestly don't think I'd be scared, just because they have a penis doesn't mean they want to use it on me.

AllPartOfThePlan

What on earth do you mean this is not how it will work? The trans-gender equality debate was held in the House of Commons last Thursday, as a result of Maria Millers transgender equality report, running to 98 pages last November.

Prior to this originally to be transgender you had to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. You had to have lived as a woman for two years and acquire a gender recognition certificate.

It is being recommended that all three of those criteria be removed (in fact gender dysphoria already has been removed).

It is being recommended that 'self identification' is the only criteria. Self identification means oneself saying one is a woman. That's it.

Seriously do some reading.

'Well isn't that how a trans woman feels? If she identifies as a woman and has to get changed in the men's room? That's why. If she's in the women's room she's not looking at the other women, getting an erection and planning to attack, she's too busy worrying what the women are thinking of her and trying to get dressed and out as quickly as possible like anyone else! '

Yes, of course she is, but the point that has been made over and over again that you are missing is that self identification makes it impossible to distinguish between the transwoman who just wants to go swimming and the peeping Tom who wants to watch women change and get off on their discomfort. And if someone is quite obviously doing the latter you won't have a leg to stand on in trying to get them thrown out because they can say they identify as a woman and the law will back them up.
I have transwomen friends and I would quite like them to be able to go swimming without stress but it is not the case that self identification is the only way to achieve that. I quite see that the hoop jumping involved in getting the grs is not ideal as it stands but the system could be simplified and made less sexist without the total disregarding of women's safety and dignity.

Vaginas are fine in the changing room. Penises are not. Doesn't matter if someone is beautiful or muscly. Clear enough for you?

Allpart - the problem which you don't seem to be seeing, is that with self-identification, there is no "checking" or "asking" family or friends, it can be just "I feel like a woman" for the five minutes Joe Pervert is being a peeping tom, and "I feel like a man" before and afterwards.

The three men charged by police for looking over the cubicles at my local leisure centre in the past couple of years would no longer be committing an offence if they said that while they were in the changing area, they were actually women.

And the other point is, presumably you are a woman, how would you feel walking into a male changing room and getting changed in front of all those men? Would you feel comfortable??

I don't feel comfortable in any open changing area tbh. But I am ok with the female ones as everyone has the same as me, and aren't likely to be paying any attention anyway.

If I was male and had a male body, I would still feel uncomfortable in communal changing areas I expect (though maybe not, as men aren't taught to hate their bodies like we are..) so again, everyone has the same and won't be paying attention to each other..so I would be more comfortable in the male room

Datun come on, you know that's not how this will work. 🙄 Why do you have such little faith in people? I'm pretty damaged by men but even I don't buy that for a second. And yes, self identification means they don't need it officially recognised, but do you realise how much they have to go through to get recognised at the moment and what some of the proposals for that in the future are??? That's not right.

And no one answered my question about Buck Angel. This is a man, an incredibly macho butch hard looking man, who has a vagina. Would you be comfortable with him in the ladies'? What about Lea T? Absolutely beautiful woman. You think she cagoule go into the men's and put herself at serious risk? Come on. That's not right. And chances are they and thousands of others have used the room they identify with for years and no one has ever noticed and they'll probably continue to.

And if we're all understanding each other, then where is the average transactivist's empathy for women's fear of violence? Why can't they be the bigger people and help us protect our safe spaces by campaigning for more accessible facilities for everyone? Because that isn't what's happening. And women on here are analysing why that's not happening, and we're coming up with very different answers from you. It doesn't make us wrong.

All What I'd you walk into a female changing room and there are several naked transwomen in there who still have their male genitals?

Would you be comfortable then?

But your hypothetical transwoman can just go behind a curtain in the men's changing rooms, can't they? That's the solution to shyness/modesty/not wanting to be seen?

The answer to your second question is also part of my post. The reason that just letting transwomen into women's changing rooms on the basis of self identification is that the safety of women's changing rooms is thereby lessened for everyone. It's not that the transwomen are necessarily there for bad motives, but the people with the bad motives can now waltz in using self identification and they can't be challenged.

Pooch yes you are right in part - male violence. A trans woman goes into the male changing room and there's a chance she's going to get smacked or at least get some nasty comments but I don't see why, in a way, being the bigger person and letting them come into our safe place is such a bad thing! Surely if we are used to being victimised and attacked and we are also scared of male violence, then why can't we be more understanding to a group who also suffers male violence against them?

And the other point is, presumably you are a woman, how would you feel walking into a male changing room and getting changed in front of all those men? Would you feel comfortable?? I wouldn't, I don't feel particularly comfortable in an open female changing room, I don't want to get changed in the men's. Well isn't that how a trans woman feels? If she identifies as a woman and has to get changed in the men's room? That's why. If she's in the women's room she's not looking at the other women, getting an erection and planning to attack, she's too busy worrying what the women are thinking of her and trying to get dressed and out as quickly as possible like anyone else! That's what the majority of people this effects are feeling, from those I've spoken to.

Allpart, if it is so easy for anyone to just report when they feel someone has overstepped the mark and threatened them in a changing room, then why can't transwomen in men's changing rooms just do that?

Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner!

Yeah he shouldn't have been there but I just concluded he was confused and followed his wife.

One last time. It doesn't MATTER what you concluded. To identify as a woman, there is no piece of paper to sign, no doctor to see, no diagnosis to be made, nothing. Except saying the words. The clue is in the title 'self identification'. You don't have to get it approved, verified, or recorded. Anywhere. Families don't need to know, spouses, children, friends, colleagues. You don't have to be 'transitioning'. You can say it for 15 minutes on a Saturday night, purely to enter a ladies toilet.

Hell, technically you can enter a ladies changing room officially and wrongly as a man, get undressed, start drying your penis under the hand dryer and if you are challenged you can say you identify as a woman. And that is it. No papers, no doctors certificate, no dress, no nothing.