Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

It's a wonder there is any straw left in the world with all the men All has made out of them in one afternoon.

Blue that is absolutely not what has been said. I get that you haven't had time to read through the various threads but if you really believe that this is all about pearl clutching you have spectacularly missed the point.

I mean, it doesn't matter if your response is disjointed, but if it involves disagreeing with things that no-one has actually said I am not sure what the point is.

Bluekarou I understand you are too busy to engage as fully as you would have liked, but you have REALLY missed the point by a long way judging by: 'Yes there are nasty people in the world who want to sneak into dressing rooms and record/attack people, but they're not solely transwomen.'

Of course they're not, this is the point! But if we change the law to self identification anyone can say they are and there will be no legal basis to challenge them.

I thought MN was a place of tolerance and understanding too but this has shocked me. "Fuck off to the men's room you freaks and man up but keep those icky willies away from our loos till someone knees you in them then we may sign an online petition for you." 😳 Wow.

InTheNick, Frequency, DramaQueen (and maybe others, I've only skimmed through this thread) I'm with you. I've sat quietly through a lot of these threads, and likely will have to do the same through a lot more, not because I don't care, but because between baby and work there really isn't much time left to spend scrolling through vitriol and repeated suggestions that transwomen are simply sexual predators who want an easy way of getting into the ladies' loos.

I am so happy with MNHQ/Justine's post about MN being a place of tolerance and understanding.

Yes there are nasty people in the world who want to sneak into dressing rooms and record/attack people, but they're not solely transwomen. They are criminals, however, and rather than banning transwomen from bathrooms/changing rooms just because of who they are, we should be arresting and charging criminals for committing crimes.

I am not Spartacus.

I am a woman, a title I hold in high regards, and which I will proudly share with anyone who genuinely wants it.

In conversations about race I may label myself a white woman.
In conversations about children I may label myself a mother.
In conversations about sex and/or gender I may label myself a ciswoman.

I'm also a really shitty debater right now as I'm still at work, then have a small child to collect, so am really sorry for posting and running, and sorry if this is disjointed, I'm not able to give my full focus whilst stealthily not-working.

Laura I've not read that bit and frankly I've wasted enough time on this and it's not going anywhere, I am never going to agree that a trans woman who is uncomfortable in the men's loo should be told to man up and deal with it, but I would have to know the specifics and ages etc, I'm imagining it would be very complicated and frankly I just can't with this anymore. All this nonsense about turn the men's into GN & tell them to suck it up and we'll help when they get beaten up... ugh. Sickening frankly.

YY Laura. If the school feels obliged to respect this kids self-identified gender (though in the circumstances described a bit of scepticism wouldn't go amiss), then at this point they should apply whatever sanctions would apply if a girl behaved inappropriately to another girl.

Off you pop then luv.

I would think so too, Laura.

Sorry to ask again, but genuinely intriged. Re. the situation Monkey has talked about, with a boy known to be sexually inappropriate with girls now identifying as a girl and wanting to use girl's loos/changing rooms at school. What would they do if it was a girl known to have groped other girls. (Or a boy groping other boys)?
I'm thinking if a girl had done that to girls (for eg.) then it would be considered a safeguarding issue and the girl in question would be expected to use separate facilities/change separately, because of their actions...?

You know, I hate that talk and accusations of feminazis but this thread is starting to make me understand the frustration!

Xenophile - or "you shoudl be grateful that someone finds you attractive enough to want to do that to you"

AllPartOfThePlan

In cases of old building with just older type multi occupancy toilets. Trans women should use the men's toilet, as it matches their biological body. As we always separate people in bathrooms based on biological sex not on gender.

Indeed and the ' oh ffs don't be so unreasonable, you horrible hairy minges

all

I assumed there would be a gents as well.

As it's stands, I agree with babies and prawn. Toilets, and any other similar areas should be segregated according to biological sex.

It is not the job of women to help men sort out violence from other men.

I would be more than happy for there to be a third space for transgender people. But frankly, I have yet to see a campaign being spearheaded by any trans groups for that to happen. Which always makes me wonder.

We're just a tiny step away from "no ones going to want to rape you anyway you hairy feminazis".

Babies yeah, I'm sure they'll really feel like we're going to stand alongside them and fight together after this! "We understand how you feel, we get attacked too, but you can't come in here, oh no, you have to go and face getting attacked on your own, but when you decide to stand up for yourself, and this doesn't count, then will stand next to you." Sounds great.

Hear, hear, babies. I can see no reason why loos or any other single sex space should be redefined as being accessed on the basis of gender fucking identity rather than, as present, by sex.

Ffs Datun, which one do the men use? The gender neutral one. So what is the fucking difference???? That's not a solution! Renaming the men's "gender neutral" is still going to make it the men's loo when there's already a woman's and a disabled. How does that solve the problem of a trans woman who feels vulnerable and uncomfortable going to the men's loo and wants to use the woman's because she identifies as a woman? and if it is gender neutral then women can use it, so what about men who don't want women in their bathroom? If women don't want men in their bathroom why should men want women in theirs? Turning the men's bathroom into a gender neutral bathroom doesn't actually sold any problem at all! What do you think that is changing, apart from the sign on the door? I can think of a lot of men who wouldn't particularly want women to use their bathroom. So either they all become gender neutral, or none of them are gender neutral. If none of them are gender neutral we are still in the same position, if they are all gender neutral then men can go into the ladies anyway and you're not protected from all these peeping toms and rapists that are out to get you! So what is the solution? I'm trying to think of all the buildings I know with public toilets, and the larger ones like the leisure centre or the cinema would have to do some remodelling but would probably have the space to create a third gender neutral bathroom, but the smaller buildings like the little local pub or a smaller restaurant or coffee shop don't have anywhere near that room. So how do they create a third bathroom? Take away from the disabled? My local pub has two toilets in two bathrooms, so two in one room for men, two in another room for women. There is no disabled toilet, it's a very old listed building, there is no way to add another toilet in. So how would they for example have a men's, women's, GN & disabled?? It's all very well demanding a third GN bathroom for the odd rare trans-person who visits, but how on earth would it work practically?? Are you going to pay for that establishment to fit in an extra toilet and remodel the building? Rather than just let a person who identifies as a woman use the woman's toilet?

Most smaller places will have one or two single room toilets with sink in the room and a lock on the door no gaps anywhere.

I use these irrelevant of what the toilet is labelled, as I have an intermittent bowel condition which mean I sometime need very fast access to toilets and these single room types are safe for anyone. Who cares if it says men or women...a door sign doesn't change my sex !

Maybe all the one room type should be labelled as unisex. But either way as these are single occupancy any trans person can use any of them.

But in bigger places where there are banks of flimsy cubicles with gaps above and below, trans people should use the toilet aligned to their biological body, it is logical.

The ladies bathroom has no magical properties. If a transwoman was targeted by a violent man, that violent man is able to follow transwoman into the ladies or wait outside the toilet for them. Now and after the law changes.

A transwoman should use the male toilets, report any crime which occurs (like women do) and start a campaign to tackle male violence and we women will stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

Accepting you will be tested as a second class citizen. And taking a pay cut after all a lot of woman still don't get paid the same as their male counterparts.(sorry a bit of a rant)

"Speak so you think there should be a woman's toilet, a disabled toilet, and the gender neutral toilet? So how does that solve anything? Women are going to go to the women's one and you still got the same problem!"

Eh? Women use the women's and transwomen use the gender neutral.

"Speak so you think there should be a woman's toilet, a disabled toilet, and the gender neutral toilet? So how does that solve anything? Women are going to go to the women's one and you still got the same problem!"

I would also want there not be a change in the law to allow self-identification as the only definition of being transgender. That's the important part of this that keeps getting ignored. There are no laws about who can go in which toilets at the moment (as far as I am aware). I don't want there to be a change in the law (the adoption of self-identification as the only definition of being transgender) which will mean that women are unable to object to male-bodied people being in the women's toilets. In the world of self-identification, if a woman were to object to a male-bodied person in women's facilities, then they would guilty of transphobic harrassment if the person says they self-identify as transgender. There is no way that I can see to police or verify self-identification.