Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

Gleefully labelling transwomen as men here, there and everywhere. The other issues, sure, I can see why people might want to debate them but the whole re-labelling of transwomen as men or penis owners is just a bit beyond the pale to me.

But this is their language. Look on the TRA pages and you will see that women are supposed to call ourselves vagina owners or uterus bearers. We are supposed to refer to 'pregnant persons'. Sometimes we are called menstruators. We can't call ourselves women, we have to use 'cis woman' or plain 'cis'. I find these terms offensive, as do many women. This isn't even to mention 'TERF', which is just utterly offensive.

There are double standards here - TRAs can call women what they damn well like - but they squeal like schoolyard bullies not only if we fight back, but if we use language near and dear to us that even five years ago was not at all offensive (such as 'women').

As a small piece of evidence, I offer this piece from an academic blogger on the Ms Magazine site:

msmagazine.com/blog/2013/02/11/of-menstruators-and-manhole-covers/

I find this utterly, utterly offensive. Yet, it is language that is taking over and becoming increasingly dominant.

Inthenick, I think just a few years ago most of us would simply have agreed with you that there was no problem. Transwomen were males who had dysphoria bad enough that they felt the need to have surgery and present as women, and once they met the criteria they got GRCs. I have a couple of trans friends in my circle & that's all fine, they're just Cathy and Jan.

But nowadays what does being trans even mean? I'm a lesbian, short hair, no makeup, trousers, work in IT, decent flatpacker, not interested in having kids - does that mean I'm under the transgender umbrella for being gender nonconforming? Do you honestly think that anyone should just be able to say "I'm trans" and have free access to women's safe spaces? Because then they're not safe for anyone.

I know most transpeople just want to get on with their lives quietly and that the current ruckus is doing them no favours, but maybe more of them need to be shouting out "Not in my name" on the extremists and recognising that people like that are a large part of the reason women are worried? Empathy should work both ways, after all.

Yet another Spartacus. Thank you for standing strong, sisters. Female born women are entitled to speak their own truths and define themselves and their experiences. And have their own spaces and boundaries.

Another Spartacus checking in.

MNHQ - stand with us

Oh and I'm Spartacus

Just count yourselves lucky you have never had to deal with the complications a trans person has

And trans women should count themselves lucky they haven't had to deal with the complications that come with being born female in this world.

I think there is plenty of room in our womanhood for women who were formerly men. I do not think we need to call out the physical characteristics they were born with, it is not relevant to me. I guess I feel, as a woman who is happy and proud to be one, I have no issue with other people identifying as the same. Even if it means access to women only areas. I've heard all the arguments and still feel the same. I do not think trans women are men. So I see no erosion of women's rights by the existence of transwomen in the world.

Just count yourselves lucky you have never had to deal with the complications a trans person has. We should be supporting them not pointing out the criminals and extremists as reasons to not give them basic rights.

I think it's all this vehement insistance that transwomen are biologically male and should be labelled as such. Who the fuck cares what label someone chooses to give themselves? If they're happier and mentally healthier labelling themselves as female, let them get on with it. It all seems a bit - I don't know - kind of malicous

If trans people chose a brand new label for themselves, I wouldn't have a problem. But they've chosen the words 'girl' 'woman' and more recently the word 'female'. These words have been applied to me since I was born. At times I have resented them, but I've accepted them because they state a fact- I am biologically female. But now the meaning has changed because of TAs. Now it means 'feel like or identify as a woman'. It's a rather meaningless, circular definition and it does NOT apply to me. It's not an accurate description of me. In a few years time, if not now, I will be unable to call myself a 'woman'.

Now I guess it's possible to argue that this doesn't matter, I don't need that label. But if 'women' becomes a group based on who has a particular image or feeling about themselves, and many former 'women' no longer fit, how do we measure the pay gap? How do we collect statistics about crimes? How do we even collect medical statistics and measure the effects of illnesses which affect males and females differently?

I used to think that it wouldn't be so bad to give up the label 'women' to a new meaning, because we'd still have 'female' which is distinctly scientific and biological in nature. Only we don't any more- see the newspaper articles about the first female frontline soldier.

Biological females no longer have a term to describe ourselves that is universally accepted. I find that frightening. So, yes, I care.

See I wouldn't have so much of an issue if they were snipped and tucked my main issue is the ones who scream they are a woman but wish to keep a fully functioning penis sorry but women don't have a penis

inthenick, just wanted to say thanks for answering the question. We disagree, but i'd so much rather that than the usual interaction that comes from people who object to these threads, who usually post once to say "you're all hateful bigots" and flounce off.

those who think that name calling is all that these threads deserve don't seem to quite realise that they're colluding with people who want to silence them. I am not transphobic at all, but i am staunchly opposed to anti feminist or anti woman trans activism.

great posts, Olenna (and sorry about the dig about grammar )

Thinking of the Christmas name DontCallMeCisMas. I suspect it would get me booted off MN.

Frequency - I think it's all this vehement insistance that transwomen are biologically male and should be labelled as such. Who the fuck cares what label someone chooses to give themselves? If they're happier and mentally healthier labeling themselves as female, let them get on with it. It all seems a bit - I don't know - kind of malicous.

It's not malicious.
It has real life repercussions, because they are not content to stick with labels. They want to perform femininity. This involves using women's and girls' spaces.

'Women' go to women's homeless shelters.
'Women' like to be able to talk to a woman in a Rape Crisis Centre, and to other women in group therapy.
'Women' live, often in terror of being found, in shelters for battered women.
'Women' are sent to women's prisons.
'Women' are housed in women's psychiatric wards.
'Girls' join teams of girls and compete against other girls in school sports and professional sports.
'Girls' change together in locker rooms and shower in girls' showers in schools.
'Girls' and 'women' change and shower and dress together in pool changing rooms.
And then there are the women's loos. Where I live, many homeless women use the loos in the local library to wash in the morning - stripped down to bras on top, they wash armpits, necks, faces, sometimes hair.

How do you feel about the prospect of a teenage girl being beaten by a teenage boy calling himself a teenage girl at a cross country event that she trained her butt off for? Because no amount of identifying can undo the gifts that testosterone bestows on teenage boys when it comes to physical strength.
How do you feel about the women who are the most vulnerable and voiceless in society, in prisons and psychiatric wards and homeless shelters sharing space with people who are actually men, bearing in mind that sometimes men are in prison because they have raped women or children.
Would women and children feel safe in a battered women's shelter with a man residing there with them, or would they feel stressed and unempowered?
Would you prefer to talk to a rape counsellor who was a man, or one who was a woman?

I am a woman. I am not transphobic. I am a feminist. I can be all of those things at the same time.

Sorry, that was long and I was interrupted a couple of times so might have lost my train of thought a little

Thinking about this a bit more, I think it's possible to draw a parallel between Islamic extremism and TRA in terms of how quickly certain groups have been able to exert influence and become the default spokespeople for these issues.

Years ago when the media and the government were thinking about how best to deal with issues raised by Islamism in the wake of the London bombings, they needed someone to provide guidance. They needed articulate people who were willing and able to go onto Newsnight, serve on taskforces, engage with civil servants, draft guidance etc etc. When groups such as the MCB put themselves forward they welcomed them with open arms, and listened uncritically as guidance suggesting that Muslim boys and girls should be segregated, halal meat served in state schools etc. There was little challenge, as the main criticism came from those who could legitimately be described as islamophobic. Those who felt some disquiet at proposals daren't speak out for fear of being lumped in with the right wing bigots. And anyway, if those groups were unsuitable and other groups refused to engage, who would be the stakeholders to help develop policy? Who would be able to provide the counter argument in the media on the latest terrorism legislation that many felt was infringing on personal freedoms? And so certain groups were able to get influence well beyond their dreams, and push an ideology that appeared to be mainstream to the casual observer, but was actually pretty radical.

As civic society's understanding of the issues - and people involved - developed, so too did the dissenting voices. People began to challenge what had been previously accepted without question. Parents began to complain about the effects of school policies on their children. Questions were asked about exactly who was benefitting from the changes, and why was so much tax payer money going into their pockets.

And so we are now at a point where there are a few, reasonably high profile groups are exceptionally good at lobbying and getting media traction. We have media friendly individuals (PL, Juno), we have groups willing to provide guidance for the hapless copy editor. For example, Mermaids have issued media guidelines, for example, that suggests that language such as "born a man" is offensive (because people are born babies) and "cisgender" is the correct phrase to use for non-trans people "in the same way that heterosexual means not homosexual". But because it is wrapped up with lots of reasonable stuff (of course people should be accorded privacy, particularly children, and allowed to tell their own story!) the problematic elements are either overlooked or not understood.

I'm hoping that we are heading towards a turning point in the TRA rhetoric, whereby more people will say "arguing that a vagina should be called a front hole and we now need to talk about expectant people is bonkers" without being shouted down as TERFs (or worse). I hope that those who say they are "saddened to see such bigotry" will understand what all the fuss was about and be able to shift their position.

Am I being over-optimistic?

Frequency - I think it's all this vehement insistance that transwomen are biologically male and should be labelled as such. Who the fuck cares what label someone chooses to give themselves? If they're happier and mentally healthier labeling themselves as female, let them get on with it. It all seems a bit - I don't know - kind of malicous.

It isn't malicious at all frequency - allowing a subset of people who perfectly meet the definition of the term "man" in every professional dictionary I've ever looked in, in all of the languages that I speak, to redefine what it is to be a woman in a manner that can be shown to be extremely detrimental to the fifty per cent of the population that perfectly meet the definition of the term "woman", is damaging to the latter group who are perfectly justified in having an opinon on the issue, and an angry one at that. If you say transwomen are women for toilets and changing rooms then how can you say they aren't when it comes to prisons?

And be aware that when you allow a subset of men to redefine the meaning of the word woman they redefine the identities of all those women and the sexualities of everyone on the planet. Why do they get to scream transphobia when someone refuses them the right to their chosen identity while simultaneously refusing others the right to theirs? When you allow people like Caitlyn Jenner to call herself a woman you are redefining the meaning of terms such as lesbian and therefore telling lesbians that what they define themselves as is wrong and that their identities are not their own to control. The internet is littered with stories of men who see themselves as women coming along to lesbian only groups and the women that attend them being forced to speak to them and pretend they see them as potential dating partners when they are not potential dating partners to the majority of lesbians.

Transwomen are biologically male which makes them men and why should the happiness of men be put above the safety of women and girls? Why shouldn't women be allowed to care?

I've met a few lovely transabled people. That doesn't stop me from arguing against them being offered permanent, mutilating surgery or strongly believing that their mind, not their body, is at the root of their distress. And I don't think that the group of 'people with spinal cord injuries' should include people who feel like they ought to be paralysed but actually aren't. Or that the definition of obese should include people with anorexia and a BMI of 15 who feel too fat.

I'm also frustrated by the number of trans discussions. There are so many battles to fight that affect millions of women, practically not theoretically. And we are squabbling about who passes in the ladies. But if we don't hold fast to biological truths we are telling lies which may cause terrible harm to people who don't feel they fit into the gender bullshit categories.

As soon as anyone tells me what 'feeling like a woman' is without resorting to stereotypes, I'll quit these threads forever.

In the mean time, I'm interested to know if miranda is also 'transphobic' line the rest of us.

frequency, I'm not sure people were much bothered a few years ago, but trans activism has been so successful and women's rights so overlooked and women's voices so silenced, we have to speak up now.

And I'm still Spartacus.

Inthe - I agree that there are many posters who feel strongly about this issue, and their posts reflect this (I include myself in this). There is a reason for this strength of feeling, however, and it isn't because we are a load of TERF-y bigots who hate all transpeople, any more than the Relationships board is full of man-hating vipers or the Litter Tray is entirely frequented by dog-loathing spinsters. I can see how it might look to a casual observer who happens across a thread or two in Active Conversations, skim reads it and is put off by the fast-moving, strongly worded posts.

As Errol says, the majority of the anger is directed at TRAs, who most of us would agree are making life harder both for women and for other transpeople who do genuinely just want to get on with their lives without telling women that they are doing femininity all wrong. These are the people who are objectionable, and there is a growing litany of TRAs who are both objectionable and criminal. I completely agree that being trans in and of itself is not something to fear, dislike or treat with contempt (hence I strongly reject the assertion that I am "transphobic")

There are often one or two posts that I dislike, but I think the "chicks with dicks" type comments tend to come from pp who don't stick around to discuss and debate the issues, and MNHQ do zap those if they are reported.

The only feelz I have, is fucking outright anger when others tell me what it is to feel like a woman.

What, threads about an identity politics lobbying group trying to silence women's voices boil your piss?

Why?

Just a poll - how many if you actually know any Trans women?

A very old and dear friend of mine is a trans woman and threads like this boil my piss no end!!

I'm with InTheNick.

I don't contribute to any trans threads. The spartacus thing is going totally over my head. But I do find when I stumble across a trans thread, that they always leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I think it's all this vehement insistance that transwomen are biologically male and should be labelled as such. Who the fuck cares what label someone chooses to give themselves? If they're happier and mentally healthier labelling themselves as female, let them get on with it. It all seems a bit - I don't know - kind of malicous.

Gleefully labelling transwomen as men here, there and everywhere. The other issues, sure, I can see why people might want to debate them but the whole re-labelling of transwomen as men or penis owners is just a bit beyond the pale to me.

I get lost on the bathroom debate too. I have never, ever come across a pre-op transwoman waving her willy in my face in a public loo. I have come across a few vicous females in my younger days in public loos but we don't background check prospective toilet users before they are granted access to a nightclub loo.

The prison issue I kind of get. A criminal pre-op transwoman, particularly one who has been convicted of a violent crime, should not be housed with vulnerable cis-women, but nor should they be with men. They need their own space really.

I'm a biological woman I have no idea what it means to identify as one other than my biology.