Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

But can't you see that by saying no way can they come into our loos or changing rooms that you are punishing them all for the actions of a few? That doesn't seem fair.

If they 'pass' then likely that they will carry on as before ...

What is the alternative? Letting every Tom, Dick and Harry who looks like Tom, Dick and Harry, but declares that they are Pam, Trish and Mary into the ladies (and other women's spaces)? If this happens women and girls suffer.

the widespread belief that trans women are rapists in frocks who want to see fannies."

Sounds like a reasonable and intelligent individual who has taken time to read the critiques, understand the concerns and present them dispassionately 🙄

I'm not sure I understand you Stormwhale, because you're saying both that you don't want women to give up safe spaces and that you don't want safe spaces to exclude trans women, could you clarify?

In terms of most trans people being nice and reasonable, yes, I'm sure they are. But we don't create laws to protect us from the nice, reasonable people. We create laws to protect us from the people who aren't nice and reasonable. So most trans women would never in a million years try and take a job where they were a 'female' rape counsellor or conducted strip searches of female suspects on the grounds that they were a 'female' police officer. But I need laws and policies protecting me from the ones wh would do that.

Just as I need laws against rape to exist, even though most men will never rape. And how could we have brought in laws to make rape in marriage in illegal in the nineties, without saying over and over again that some husbands rape? And of course most husbands are lovely and I don't want them to feel bad or under the spotlight or like villains, but Women need protection from the ones who aren't lovely.

So we had to talk about rapist husbands to get those rights in law. And we now need to talk about trans people that break vulnerable women's spaces and boundaries down to get rights in law to stop them.

Storm

I see gender dysphoria as a mental health condition. If people feel that their internal view of themselves and their biological sex don't match and they wish to transition, that is none of my business. But they can't expect the rest of the world to collude with them in this belief. People don't accept it. You can't make people believe something they believe to be untrue.

Anorexia is founded in a belief that you are fat when you are not, and sometimes when you are dangerously thin, to the point of death. The rest of the world are not forced or encouraged to collude in this dangerous delusion.

Transpeople, unless they pass as the opposite sex, are unlikely to get the acceptance they need. People don't see transwomen as women in every possible way. That is the reality. It's very sad. But it is not a reason to dismantle women's rights and erase women's identity and lived experience in the process. There is no solution which will work for everyone.

But can't you see that by saying no way can they come into our loos or changing rooms that you are punishing them all for the actions of a few? That doesn't seem fair.

Stormwhale - if you have intestinal fortitude to read through a few trans threads (chocolate and whisky will help here), I think you will see that the vast majority of posters draw very careful links between 'ordinary' trans people and 'activists'. Most people are accepting and supportive of 'ordinary' trans people. I think, though, that what a huge focus of a lot of the 'Spartacus' threads is on is on legal and policy reforms that negate and threaten women's freedoms, rights and spaces. It is also on the way that the trans narrative is affecting children. I agree that there are likely many ordinary trans people who are negatively affected by the whole debate. It is good to see that some are standing up to the TRA's, and I am personally happy to support them and stand behind them.

LumelaMme

The Spartacus thread was based on the Roman slave Spartacus (iirc - I only knew about it from the film), When amongst a crowd of other slaves, was asked which one of you is Spartacus? (he was being arrested) and before he could answer, one after the other, all the other slaves stood up and said I am Spartacus. The premise being, that they couldn't all be arrested, and if they all identified as Spartacus they were united in not having him singled out.

It was around the time when people felt paralysed by mis-gendering as posts were being deleted, for calling transwomen, men.

So it was a thread where people who still held the view they should be allowed to call transwomen, men just joined and said I am Spartacus, as an indicator of group solidarity.

Hope that makes sense.

Stormwhale

I agree, as it is the transactivists who are pushing for this agenda and as you will be sharing your bathroom with them, we are left between a rock and a hard place.

Because it is such an obsession with the trans-activists, there will be a lot of hoo-ha over enforcing their rights. For them, this is simply not just a place to pee. Boundaries will be pushed deliberately.

And you're absolutely right, genuine transpeople are going under the bus along with us and suffering, by association, with the activists.

I cannot assume that all transwomen are transactivists who want to trample all over us as women.

None of us do. But the TAs, and those who copy their behaviour, are actually.harming trans women.

I find this a hard issue to get my head around, so any comments on my thoughts would be much appreciated. I am not as eloquent as many on this thread, but it has been playing on my mind a lot lately.

I agree with the pp who compared this issue to Islamic extremists. My problem with wholeheartedly getting behind the sparticus crew is that I can't see that your every day transgender person would act like the transactivists. When the Islamic extremists have spewed their hate, it has had an awful knock on effect for the normal Muslim people. They wouldn't dream of committing a murder or being violent, it is against their religion. These extremists categorically do not represent Muslims. I do not feel that the transactivists actually represent transwomen.

If I imagine myself in a ladies loo with a transactivist, I feel anxious. If I imagine myself in a ladies loo with a transwoman who just wants to be accepted for how they think their body should be, then I'm OK with that.

I feel it can sometimes be forgotten that these are just people, not the extremists. The decisions made out of anger towards the transactivists affects all the transwomen who don't think we should have to rename our vaginas as front holes, or lose our labels that we were born with, or our safe spaces that we have fought for and earnt.

In the same way as if I met a Muslim in the street I do not assume they are a terrorist, I cannot assume that all transwomen are transactivists who want to trample all over us as women. I can't buy into the hate against them all, so I can't feel the wish to exclude them from our spaces and deny them the permission to use the terms we use. It must be horrific to be forever labelled as other, outsider, doesn't belong, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

Inthenick, what actually is a transwoman? Where is your cut off? Or don't you have one?

FrancisCrawford

Sorry my post should have said total hysterectomy

But seeing how things are going I wouldn't be surprised if they started lobbying for MTF getting smear tests too. Because they are afterall women and it would be transphobic not to offer this screening to them which is available to all women

FRETGNIKCUF

Why not? Why should it not be recorded? That makes no sense at all

had cancer

I have a friend who has just written the community nursing guidance for trans.

Basically anything, literally ANYTHING, regarding their health pre transition is no longer on medical records and cannot be discussed. So if that person was a herion addict or cancer or had a near fatal heart attack it would not be on any medical record.

How utterly mental is that?

transwomen, sorry.

Transmen, yes as they do have cervixes

Amalfimamma

Oh please no re. smears for transmen. Surely not? It can't be this insane, really

I was sceptical that transwomen would actually be included in those statistics, until a transwoman on here told me she was looking forward to getting a letter calling her for a smear test.

From what I know smear tests are only available to ftm who have not had a hysterectomy as part of their transistor, ie still have a vagina. This in itself is fucking up statistics because of the testosterone they are taking.

If the NHS is offering smear tests to mtf they need to be shamed as mtf don't have cervixes.

Some great posts here.

But... I was mostly off MN over the summer and missed the whole Spartacus thing. Can someone explain in a few lines, please?

ElsaAintAsColdAsMe

Couldn't agree more Elsa. The problems that transpeople face are simply different from those who aren't trans.

I should imagine separate, specialised services would be a godsend.

A friend of mine who works in financing for the NHS has a concern that as the rates for cervical cancer go down, because they include people who identify as women, the funding will be cut. I was sceptical that transwomen would actually be included in those statistics, until a transwoman on here told me she was looking forward to getting a letter calling her for a smear test.

IF (and it's a big if, because I'm still sceptical, and hoping it's not true) that's the case, the stats for ALL women's biological health issues will be skewed.

So anyone who thinks this is not harmful to women. It is.

OlennasWimple

As I think most people on here see a big distinction between genuine transwomen, and a trans-activists I think using the term 'radicalised' instead of trans-activist is more accurate and has less of a 'noble fight' flavour.

I was in a complicated situation that meant violence towards me and my trans child (don't flame me) caused us to be in a refuge.

They were brilliant with my child, but they didn't have the training or knowledge to deal with us properly.

Aside from the issue of these trans activists demanding access to female spaces though they have no intention to have surgery or hormones, I think it would be doing the transgender person who needs a refuge a huge injustice to go to a facility where there is no specialist help. There does need to be separate facilities in some instances, and unisex facilities for others imo.

"I think there is plenty of room in our womanhood for women who were formerly men. I do not think we need to call out the physical characteristics they were born with, it is not relevant to me. I guess I feel, as a woman who is happy and proud to be one, I have no issue with other people identifying as the same. Even if it means access to women only areas. I've heard all the arguments and still feel the same. I do not think trans women are men. So I see no erosion of women's rights by the existence of transwomen in the world.

Just count yourselves lucky you have never had to deal with the complications a trans person has. We should be supporting them not pointing out the criminals and extremists as reasons to not give them basic rights."

Nice you're so happy to throw vulnerable women and girls under the bus.

*Just a poll - how many if you actually know any Trans women?

A very old and dear friend of mine is a trans woman and threads like this boil my piss no end!!*

I know a few. One is quite a close friend / colleague. I do not always agree with this person over trans issues, but we get along.

Unfortunately, my work is more likely to bring me in contact with the transactivist type and their acolytes. Experiences have included;

• being asked not to refer to 'women' in a meeting (people who identify as women was the correct phrase).
• being told that I was transphobic for my abolitionist perspective re prostitution (by someone who was born male).
• being told that I cannot use the word 'woman' by a person who was born male, presented in a hypermasculine way, but identified as 'trans' was latently aggressive, and who also told me that women fantasise about rape.

There are others ...

Before I came on MN I honestly thought that trans women were a tiny percentage of the population, individuals that had been through a long drawn out process of hormones and surgery to best correct their bodies so they echoed their brains. My view was to a certain extent though that it was not the bodies that were wrong but the brains but that is a side issue.

Since I arrived here a few posters kindly showed me some insight into what the trans-movement has become and it's very far from what my initial viewpoints were. I wouldn't go so far as to say I was a 'TERF' because I do believe there is a very small minority of people who really do need to become 'transsexuals' in order to survive. However recent movements that people with penises can be women seem ridiculous and appear to me to be encroaching on hard fought for and vital women's safe spaces.

I think a lot of women out there are like me and never really thought the issue all that much and so tow the pro-trans line without it really going through their brains.