Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

"It's no longer clear what a transition consists of, or if transition necessarily involves any physical transition of any significant kind."

Exactly. And I can see where this is going. If women insist on physical and medical transition before transwomen are welcomed into our spaces, we'll be accused of violence.

More and more transwomen seem to be happy to simply present as (their idea of) female.

People are being censured, in schools and universities, and in workplaces for not accepting a definition of 'woman' that is anything other than 'adult human female'.

Lesbians are being marginalised and harassed for not believing that there are lesbians with penises.

Transmen are receiving accolades for being the 'first female to...[insert achievement here]'. So the first actual woman next line is...what? The second woman?

They are being counted on boards with gender mix targets as 'female'.

Girls in schools are being co-oerced into sharing changing facilities with transboys.

Woman and girls are being co-erced into sporting competitions with males as if they're on a level playing field.

Every transwoman you've ever met may be lovely. And your point is...? I know two parents with transkids. So what? I'm sick of that straw man argument. It doesn't make them a woman. Even if they are lovely.

Women give birth. Men don't. Every human in the world was birthed by a woman.

Wear what you want, wear makeup, or not. Wear dresses, or not. Make love with whomever you want. Teach my kids, fix my car, do my taxes, cut my hair, book my holiday, fix my dodgy knee. I don't care what sex you are, or if you are trans. I don't hate you. I don't fear you. I am not phobic. But if you tell me you are male when you are actually female (or vice versa) then I will speak up. Especially if you start teaching that shit in schools.

Almond - but how could it be done without firm limits on what constitutes a 'safe' transwoman? Would they need proof of transition? Who decides the limits? Sorry if this has been done before, I am new to the party.

storm, the difference between your religious analogy and the trans situation is that the extremists have somehow won the ear of the government and the media.

Stormwhale, yes, that is the difficulty of it I think.

It felt like under the old equality act guidance there was room for uncertainty - so service providers could make decisions about trans women in refuges or group counselling sessions on a case by case basis.

We seem to have lost that leeway for people in the situations to look at them and make decisions based on the needs of everyone involved.

Am I being idealistic to think that in a decades time this will be easier, and that the tension comes from trying to resolve the position of people having late transitions?

It's no longer clear what a transition consists of, or if transition necessarily involves any physical transition of any significant kind.

Under nineteens transitioning is mostly a threat to girls rather than women.

Lila Perry wanted to share a school changing room with teenage girls, not with women.

Thread singular.

The trans in toilets threads has just been closed by HQ.

Almond- sorry I told you I can't get my head around it, my confusion is coming across loud and clear.

Thank you to the others who have taken the time to clear some things up. I understand what you are saying about needing policies in place to protect us from the few who wish to cause harm. I guess the pp who stated that there is not a way for us all to win is right and that is why I can't get my head around it. It feels like it has to be us or them and I don't like that at all.

And I should have added to my post, wrestling with: 'how we support and protect women.'
Should check before I post...

And we can no longer say 'there's no such thing as women who rape'. Which opens up a whole can of legal worms. And is an gift to every aresehole who's ever said 'bleh bleh bleh feminazis, how come you don't care about women who rape men?' - and when confronted with the facts about the legal definition of rape, sticks his fingers in his ears already.

I'm finding this thread really helpful. After a rocky start, the majority of the discussion has been well reasoned, and avoided personal attacks on other posts. Thank you.

I'm wrestling with how we support and protect children with identity issues and how we support and protect trans adults.

Am I being idealistic to think that in a decades time this will be easier, and that the tension comes from trying to resolve the position of people having late transitions? That children who have had support to resolve their gender identity will feel less threatening to women?

I absolutely support the defence of feminism, fighting to protect the dignity and safety and freedom of women.

I'm not sure if I'm Spartacus, still working it out.

Radicalization, schmadicalization.

My problem isn't really with who uses what toilet - although I do have some concerns about that, I think by and large it is self-regulating: people who 'pass' will probably not encounter a problem and nor will the people whose toilets they share.

My problem is with arguments about 'men brains' and 'lady brains', and the idea that children who behave in certain ways - even at the age of TWO - are 'trapped in the wrong body'. The trans narrative unthinkingly adopts, endorses, and strengthens, the idea that gender exists, that it matters, and that it must fit the body it is in. At worst, it is sexist and homophobic.

What are we telling our daughters, when we tell them that Jack is now Jill and must be acknowledged as such? We're telling them that Jack 'felt like a girl' and 'was a girl', because, presumably, he has some girl-feelings that are the same as theirs. So we're telling them that their feelings, responses, preferences and desires are fundamentally located within their very girlhood, rather than just 'who they are'.

We're telling them, when 'Jill' then beats them on sports day in the girls' races, that 'Jill' is actually a better kind of woman than them, and their achievements within the context of their sex are now much less - and they have little hope of changing that.

When 'Jill' puts on makeup and girls' clothing, we're telling them: that's it. That's what makes a girl. Jack felt 'just like you', so he is 'just like you', and and that's what being a girl is.

If Jack transitions at university, and is on a STEM course, we're telling them, look! There isn't an issue with girls doing science - look at Jill! She's got there, why can't you?

Yes, everyone has their biases and prejudices, Ipity. Including you.

Pontipines, you consider my views prejudiced, I consider yours prejudiced.

I don't see any solution to that other than discussion within the limits of the law, including debate about what those limits should be.

I don't think it is radical to discuss changes in the law and policy and whether those changes should happen.

Pontypines that comparison really doesn't work.

Could anyone point out to me where the halal meat comment was?

It is not women are creating this difficulty. We have been happy sharing a bathroom with trans-women for years, without a second thought. But when you are calling for legislation that allows fully intact male people who are attracted to women being allowed to share a changing room or shower with your 11 year old daughter, you have to say enough.

The bathroom debate is not about trans-activists wanting access to the bathrooms, specifically. It is about being legally recognised as women, and therefore ALL the rights accrued to women, get given to them. it is much more insidious than it first appears.

This. Absolutely.

#stillspartacus

Venus - Yay! Prejudice for everyone! Woo-hoo!

Who said that Pontipines?

Well you have your views, and other people have theirs Ipity. Free speech is great, isn't it?

So halal meat being served in schools is Islamic extremism.

What?! I notice that no one challenged that and just nodded along.

This is one of the reasons why these threads appal me, because the gleeful painting of one group of society as a threat to humanity won't stop there, you'll get bored eventually and move on to another target.

They way you talk about trans people, is the way UKIPers and the like talk about immigrants and the way the EDL talk about Muslims.

Also, the number of people who post on these threads saying "I never realised trans people were such an issue until I read Mumsnet" - people cheer this on, when it's just another form of online radicalisation.

Storm

It is not women are creating this difficulty. We have been happy sharing a bathroom with trans-women for years, without a second thought. But when you are calling for legislation that allows fully intact male people who are attracted to women being allowed to share a changing room or shower with your 11 year old daughter, you have to say enough.

The bathroom debate is not about trans-activists wanting access to the bathrooms, specifically. It is about being legally recognised as women, and therefore ALL the rights accrued to women, get given to them. it is much more insidious than it first appears.

It's not about "punishing" anyone. It's about simple respect for women's boundaries, privacy, dignity and safety.