Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

And I still would like to reserve the right for some activities to be women only, and I really don't think that is transphobic or unreasonable

The fact that we even have to ask that question is ludicrous, isn't it?

I'm tempted to change myself to some railings and just have a period.

I totally agree Choc. I would be ok with that too. Because I need to make a distinction in many cases. And yes, some things need to be women only, or at least centre women rather than transwomen.

You know what, if I could say, 'Women and those who identify as women' for some circumstances (eg. people who commonly wear skirts, people who are invited to attend a lecture on .. I dunno.. something womanly, but not dependant on sex, I am dry on what that might be) - then I might not mind as much - it make it clear that it's women, and people who think they are women - ie. two distinct groups.

BUT. I can't. because the rhetoric is that transwomen are women, therefore using my first phrase is transphobic.

And I still would like to reserve the right for some activities to be women only, and I really don't think that is transphobic or unreasonable.

Am I being idealistic to think that in a decades time this will be easier, and that the tension comes from trying to resolve the position of people having late transitions? That children who have had support to resolve their gender identity will feel less threatening to women?

And what about the effects on these early transitioners who grow out of their dsyphoria? Studies have shown that 60-90% of "trans" children don't feel the same way as adults. Most turn out to be gay "cis" adults.

We don't even know the long term effects of the drugs used as puberty blockers. They are being used off label to treat gender dsyphoria. The trans movement is in for a huge backlash when these early transitioners become adults.

I think this thread has been pretty tame/relaxed/calm/reasonable

But then there have been quite a few people who have come on the thread, declared its awful/transphobic etc and then disappeared.

Wierd, that...

twattymctwatterson

Please, please tell us why? That is not sarcastic. I genuinely want to know if we have it wrong.

FizzBombBathTime

Oh don't !!!

Why?

You obviously didn't read about the woman who shat on her skirt.

I think you'll find there are some terrible threads about mother in laws.

This is one of the most horrible threads I've read on Mumsnet

Alyosha

I'm still hoping that there might be some HCPs who can disabuse me of the smear test issue.

If there are any on here, can you tell me when a transwoman legally becomes a woman if she is included in the statistics for female only illnesses, like cervical cancer? And hopefully be able to refute another poster who thought their medical records prior to transition are wiped clear entirely and they start again with no record of prior heart disease, cancer etc?

I think it says a lot about the traction that this ideology has gained, that although I am hopefully sceptical (because it would be madness to feel differently), I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if this was indeed the case.

"And why are there never any late FTT transitioners?"

Well, Chaz Bono actually transitioned quite late. And various other people who were formerly on the lesbian scene, such as Pat Califia (and their partner I believe?). Also Red Jordan Arobateau, who used to be a butch lesbian writer.

Could just be a very biased sample, but this type of trajectory seems to be very different from the late MTT, where you have numerous heterosexual men who transition after having a family/a successful career/sporting success etc etc.

I, for example, don't know of any cases of heterosexual females who transition after raising a family, straight marriage, having made their fortune in the business world...............

Autoandrophilia just doesn't seem to be as common as autogynephilia perhaps?

I will admit to not being a biology expert, but your sex is written into every cell of your body. I'm having a hysterectomy next week to remove uterus and cervix. Won't make me a man. A man who chooses to have his penis removed isn't a woman.

On a personal level, I really don't care what anyone wears, what anyone calls themselves, who they sleep with and what job they do. Live and let live. Boys can play with dolls and wear make up. Girls can drive tractors and play football. All good.

But you can't start messing around with the definition of "woman" and "man". It gets really dangerous when very small children are being labelled as trans and are being encouraged by parents/activists/doctors to bind breasts or take hormones to block puberty. That's really scary stuff. And you can't speak out about it because a very vocal trans minority shout louder than everyone else and label you "transphobic".

I was broadly sympathetic to Trans people and thought of myself as a liberal feminist who was pro-porn etc. until I started reading Mumsnet.

After reading Feminist Chat for a while I have completely changed my mind thanks to the excellent arguments from Datun et al. Florafox also helped.

Mumsnet is one of the only places on the internet where the majority view is sane - i.e. that 2 y.o children aren't "boys trapped in girls bodies" or vice versa if they like playing with dinosaurs, wearing dungarees and having short hair, or that letting people who just have to say "I identify as female" into refuges/changing rooms with vulnerable women isn't OK, that allowing Trans women to access cervical smears is barmy.Women are and will be affected by this.

I am Too tired to write anything sensible so I will copy and paste from upthread just to add my voice.

"Yet another Spartacus. Thank you for standing strong, sisters. Female born women are entitled to speak their own truths and define themselves and their experiences. And have their own spaces and boundaries."

MNHQ - stand with us.

As an engineer, I find the usage of the word 'spectrum' for gender (or sex) ridiculous.

as a scientist, me too. Sex especially - F, M and various rare intersex. There is no continuum. Gender isn't a spectrum either - a woman might have a stereotypically 'masculine' job but a stereotypically feminine appearance or vv, to take an obvious example. We're all just a mish-mash of different characteristics some of which might be 'gendered' to a greater or lesser extent, either way, and some which aren't.

easy to attach the word "phobia" to things these days.

FFS...why don't they focus their energies elsewhere?

and I agree with you ALL...why is it so important to antagonise females... aren't they meant to be "women" too.

(or perhaps not, given it seems I can't spell whinge)

As an engineer, I find the usage of the word 'spectrum' for gender (or sex) ridiculous.

But this isn't the grammar section so perhaps I'll just head there with Oleana'sWimple and winge

'Who has acknowledged that gender is a spectrum? There's no psychological evidence of that at all.

Do you mean sex? Or gender?'

I mean gender, although sex isn't a spectrum either.

I think the reason transmen are not discussed so much is because most of the prominent transactivists are transwomen, and they often seem to have retained most of their male privilege and this shows in some of their demands. Transmen have not grown up with male privilege and do not in any sense challenge or threaten men in the same way women suffer from transactivism. They are women and they deserve a place in feminism.

This could be true, but the perception that I have is that, to a degree, the nutjob wing of the trans movement, is an ideological response specifically to feminism. Which would help explain where there is no trans man corollary. It's pretty fucking damning, isn't it, because it entails that this particular flavour of trans activist doesn't actually give a flying one about trans people, except as part of their stupid game.

You are my new crush venus

I think the reason transmen are not discussed so much is because most of the prominent transactivists are transwomen, and they often seem to have retained most of their male privilege and this shows in some of their demands. Transmen have not grown up with male privilege and do not in any sense challenge or threaten men in the same way women suffer from transactivism. They are women and they deserve a place in feminism.

Sorry - conversation moved on - I agreed with one thing Mx said, not all