Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

Fourth Wave Feminists want an end to the third wave antifeminism as exemplified by all those articles at Everyday Feminism mansplaining how we are womaning wrong, and a return to the woman's rights centered Feminism of the Second Wave.

I'm second wave then.

Third wavers seem to resting on the laurels of the second wavers, imo.

What do the fourth wavers want ?

I'm no expert, Datun. I just read a lot. Too much, probably.

I hang out on the Reddit subgroups, GenderCritical and Gender_Critical (have no idea why there are two with almost the same name.) There is a point to this, I promise.

Most users are American and lots are very young and most are lesbian. From them I hear how what they scathingly call funfems or libfems - their peers - say. These funfems are the audience for Everyday Feminism. They are also called Third Wave feminists and "choice" feminists (because for them any act is feminist because a woman chooses to do it.)

Hoary Whorey old feminists like me are Second Wave feminists. First Wave got us the vote. Second wave got abortion legalized, domestic violence refuges opened, among many others. Third wavers appear to spend their time extolling the virtues of sex work and ordering lesbians to have sex with penis people.

Sorry, that's perhaps a bit mean. I'm usually more measured. I don't think you necessarily have to be a specific age to be part of any wave. Most of the achievements of the Second Wave predate my birth, and IAmAmy comes across as a Second Waver rather than a Third.

I think the website 4thwavenow is named for the new wave they hope to launch.

The key achievement of the Second Wave is class analysis of the two sexes, leading to the identification of gender roles as the main tool of female subjugation in patriarchal societies.

Prawn

I don't understand the different stages, or waves, or degrees even if feminism. Are the feminists on EF usually quite young, by any chance?

Afaik it's mostly gay men on Datalounge, Datun. I get the impression that most see child transition as intrinsically homophobic, at least in some cases, and rightly so. I've not seen a poster there mention being a parent, though they mention DNs, but they find it all too easy to imagine gay kids being told that they're trans. Like tomboys who have posted here that in today's climate they would have diagnosed with gender issues, gay men imagine it happening to them, and their blood runs cold.

All the gay men I've known are very focused on dicks (feel the same way myself). They therefore totally get why lesbians are so freaked out by the cotton ceiling. What I find hard to fathom are the liberal feminists of sites like Everyday Feminism who don't get why the cotton ceiling is an outrage. Do they not have any genital preference themselves? Or is it that it's easy to be a trans ally when it's not your body that's up for grabs? Ugly, either way.

prawn

That Datalounge is interesting. Is it mostly gay guys? It's like a more open, upfront earthy version of mumsnet about the transgender issues. And they are just as worried about the transing of children as we are. And they get treated to some wonderful trolls coming in, shrieking 'bigots' and flouncing off.

Imgoing2killhim

Transvestite as a description, is now wrong apparently. Because a typical transvestite would be aroused by wearing women's clothes and acting as a woman, as they are turned on by The thought of themselves as a woman. As it's highly dodgy to allow people like that access to vulnerable women and children, it's now included under the umbrella of trans. Same fetish, different name.

Maths, I thought someone who just liked to present as a woman (whilst remaining as a man anatomically) was a transvestite?

IMO, this is getting ridiculous. I feel the need to state: I AM SPARTICUS.

It is really eye opening to read those two articles from the Somerset paper beside each other

A lot of the complaints they make simply proves they are men, assertive, making a massive fuss, not putting up with stuff. They have a very long way to go if they want to be like women in that sense.

Also lucky them to have time to go to gyms. The rest of us are at work or loading the washing machine for the umpteenth time.

I hope we all remain kind to everyone and that all men and women can seek to achievev that. If you that you tend to do pretty well in life and most mumsnetters are like that too and I hope transpeople can be too. However there does seem to be a very over the top vocal very pushy very men invading female space, men stopping women speaking kind of trans person you get on line, not all but some and we must not let them censor all the women on mumsnet on this topic.

From the transman article

A transgender man is angry after being banned from the male changing room at his GYM.

Furious Ali Ramezan, 27, was born a woman and is currently undergoing hormonal therapy with a view to a full sex change to a man.

But he was asked to use the female changing rooms or not use the gym at all after several customers complained.

Ali says he has used the Bodylines gym for many years without any problems.

But recently its manager told him there had been a flood of concerns raised about his female genitals and breasts being on show inside the male changing room.

Interesting. And only one BTL comment. Where are the reams of 'die in a fire you nasty TERFs!' comments. Are TERMs OK because they are male and therefore allowed to police women's presentation and freedoms?

Prawn - the quote is right near the end of the article, under the last photo of Ali

Prawn

I'm going to have nightmares about that picture now, especially with the tagline "Hai. This battery pack leads to something in my ass."

Where's the eye bleach emoticon when you need it

But legitimising his access to girls, is not the way forward.

I'll raise a glass to that!

Where's the comment, Olenna? I couldn't find it.

As for being able to tell someone's sex regardless of their appearance, it's true that TRAs are really obviously male. It's in their approach to things, their priorities. No woman would say lesbians who refuse dick should be expelled from university, would they? Or that fear of rape is hysterical. For people who claim to know that they're women they seldom have any empathy for us. Transsexuals, otoh, generally do.

Also, to paraphrase some gay bloke on the fabulous Datalounge, transwomen are very politically active online because in person it's often hard to take them seriously.

The quote isn't in the link, btw. It's just a general link to trans threads on the site.

For balance, I want to point out this story about a transman banned from using the men's changing rooms at the gym.

But I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement from a TRA quoted in the article: "There has to be a mutual understanding and people must have an open mind; we are all souls and that is genderless - it's not a matter of physicality or how people look, you know when you are speaking to a man or woman regardless of that."

Let's hope that among those stunning, brave transwomen who get increased visibility there's room for dear little Stefonknee and SissyKristalTG

Cote and Prawn - I find it so maddening that the 'brave' narrative and the implied victim-hood is the default position in the media. The radio presenter was asking 'what we can do to increase trans visibility' etc. The assumption is already made that everybody listening is broadly supportive and wants to protect these poor lambs and raise them up even further in profile.

VoodooPeople

Point taken. But legitimising his access to girls, is not the way forward.

Xenophile
'change in moderation policy'?
I'm quite possibly terminally bewildered, but what change?
tia

To be fair Datun it seems neither boys or girls are safe in public toilet with this creature.

"Somerset Magistrates at Yeovil heard Florida was convicted in November 2007 of rape of a boy under 16, one under 13, and raping a girl under 16.

She was also convicted of three indecent assaults of a male under 14, gross indecency with a male under 16, indecent assault of female under 14, and two counts of taking indecent photos of children"

Wonder what prison they will end up in (if at all).

The female one of course, they may be 'in danger' in the male one. See, only safety of one group matters.

That story is so exactly the sort of thing we keep saying will happen. And it has, in all its ghastly detail.

The "aren't they courageous" narrative ignores the fact that for AGPs and others being seen in wigs, heels, etc is part of the fetish. They find any humiliation aspect arousing.

Blanchard, who researched this, found that gay men would be quite dispassionate about their presentation. They wanted men to see them as women. If they weren't going to "pass" they wouldn't transition. Men with fetishes didn't care much about passing. It turned them on to be seen as female caricatures. Stefoknee Wolscht is an example.

And don't we all know how brave it is of a man to decide to "be" a woman and compete against women athletes who are weaker and smaller