Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

For me, I would set a very firm bar for sport - anyone who went through a male puberty may not compete in women's sports. I don't think that would chuck intersex athletes under the bus, would it? I feel enormous sympathy for Caster Semanya and Dutee Chand, who are now caught up in an entirely different fight than they ought to be when their issue is biological (by which I men provably, measurably biological, with no iffy neurobollocks involved)

Yy, Hermione - there's no right to be an Olympian, is there...

I think the testosterone calculation is also high to allow for female intersex athletes?

Personally I think that should be dealt with on a case-to-case basis as it is a medical condition, not a GID issue.

I would imagine there are relatively small numbers intersex athletes. Caster Semenya obviously springs to mind but I honestly struggle to name any others.

I don't know enough about intersex to determine whether it has the same impact on physical development (bone density, muscle mass etc.) as being born as a man. What I do know is that being born a man gives you those physical advantages.

itsall well it shouldn't be

It's sad if intersex athletes can't compete in the women's category due to high testosterone but people can't compete in international athletics for lots of reasons.

I think the testosterone calculation is also high to allow for female intersex athletes?

Which is why trans men aren't beating men in sports.

My entire argument.

Testosterone levels are part of it, and men being allowed to compete against women with levels that no woman achieves naturally, and at a leve, where you can still father children is absurd. But as datun says, even if the testosterone were brought down to normal female levels you'd still have all sorts of physical advantages from being male.

Which is why trans men aren't beating men in sports.

Datun - as I understand it, they took the normal female range then added 5 standard deviations not to the mean of the distribution, but to the highest naturally occurring level they measured in women - hence the 10nmol/litre limit. Doesn't seem very plausible to me. This interview with Joanna Harper explains it. (incidentally, Harper is trans, but is very much of the view that we do need to differentiate by hormone levels rather than self-identification alone, to reach some sort of situation where women, women with intersex conditions and transwomen compete on an equal playing field).

The issue I really don't understand is that of the testosterone. They said that the transwoman had followed the IOC guidelines and bought her testosterone down to 9 (whatever he measurement is) but a normal woman's testosterone doesn't get higher than 4. So why are the guidelines recommending an amount that a woman can't achieve?

There's also the matter of completely different bone density, muscle mass, a different shaped pelvis, bigger lung capacity, not carrying a uterus, etc.

And the little matter of effectively being on steroids (natural testosterone) through puberty and up until the point he started to reduce it.

bambam
But it's ok. She is wearing pink socks

As a former competitige cyclist, I am apolplectic over this. I'm more apoplectic over now frozen in PC fear many of my friends are to publicly object

They've really done a number on us over this

The difference shows up when something like the mixed ward issue comes up, and all the usual terfy suspects are saying, hang on, yes we need single sex wards but some of the situations described were transphobic and unacceptable.

Yes, there will likely be some strange alliances in the coming years, especially with the situation in the US.

I probably agree with right wing Christians that the sky is blue and the earth is round. Also that men aren't women

Indeed, we sometimes have to make alliances with those we hate (Syria is another example) for the wider good but that does not mean we support the views of those who on a particular issue are in agreement with our stance.

The way I live my lfe is actually pretty gender neutral but I don't play sport or go to places often where issues over who urinates where are an issue so it never really affects my life.

The problematic issue for feminists is that groups like Alaska Family Action are avowedly anti-abortion and quite probably are transphobic in the real sense of the word. These are not the bed-fellows I want in saying "hang on, my daughter is being pushed to one side here and it's not fair"

I just can't understand he mentality of Bearden going forward to accept the trophy for first place in front of everyone. Weren't they embarrassed? I'd love to have seen video footage or pics of everyone's faces standing watching.

I really can't get my head around how delighted they and their supporters are at this. Othe TW i can get, but non trans? Looks like Bearden only transitioned two years ago and has young children and still lives with their wife - so I read.

www.lifezette.com/quickzette/trans-student-wins-girls-track-field-championship/

This happened in Alaska a while back.

The individual in question also competed on his school's basketball and volleyball teams.

From the article:
'Alaska Family Action president Jim Minnery held a protest “to ensure that female athletes are not denied the playing opportunities and scholarships otherwise available to them and to make the playing field even again”...
...“Allowing students to play on teams of the opposite sex disproportionately impacts female students, who will lose spots on track, soccer, and volleyball teams to [biologically] male students who identify as female.”

Having played volleyball, and having daughters who played, I would personally be terrified to see a daughter of mine on the receiving end of a volleyball hit by a teenage boy.

I just want to thank everyone who has posted sensible, intelligent comments in this thread.

burdog exactly, they've all suffered more and are more oppressed than any woman or girl so it's only right they take accolades, jobs, spaces and achievements reserved for women

They're like women, only better, Hermione.

This makes me so sad. It seems that every week there's an example of women's achievements being swept aside by men

Maybe the bathroom solution might be to label them 'real men', 'real ladies (sparkles and glitter)' and a 'no penis bathroom'. Then women can vote with their feet.

All those women repeatedly defending Bearden - are transwomen.

That stupid woman organiser who kept copy and pasting the same comment over and over, insisting that Beardon was both legally and biologically a woman. Biologically!