Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

Come Datun, cheap dig. Wasn't trying to make a point about it. I am not about kicking and screaming if there has not every facility in every venue. I was just trying to give an example of the sensitivities a play and negative feeling involved. To put things into perspective. It was difficult for me to use the facilities and although 9 out of 10 women I am sure would have been very understanding it stills makes for an uncomfortable situation for all.

Like I said think we have to be sensible and pragmatic with our approach. I do believe that some people are genuinely trans, non binery or what ever. I believe people should have the freedom to be who the genuinely feel. But I don't think it's fair to expect the happiness and security of the many for the sake of the very few. There could be a compromise. I was trying use the example because in real terms it does hurt this minority and I can understand that. But I don't think that letting anyone using any bathroom is the answer.

Although just to add a thinking point. Do you think that is whole bathroom issue will be viewed as backwards or discriminative in the future? Segregation of gender in toilets is pretty new in the history of public toilet facilities

Tiger transition usually has no impact on genitals. The overwhelming majority of transwomen still have a penis (for lots of reasons). We really need the public to understand what transition and self-identification actually means. It means Bob from down the road identifies as gender fluid and uses the men's changing rooms on Wednesdays but the women's on Thursday and Friday, but never takes any hormones, has any surgery and often doesn't even wear what society considers 'womens' clothes. So we have no idea if the person with the obviously male body is a harmless man, Bib from down the road on a day he identifies as a woman, someone who identifies as a woman but doesn't want to alter the way they present in the name of 'expanding the bandwidth of womanhood' or an opportunistic sexual predator. And you have absolutely no right to question that person's intentions incase you trigger them or cause 'actual harm'. And women all over are literally falling over themselves to make this happen in the name of being a good ally. It's the absolute pinnacle of internalised misogyny.

I don't come across these issues because I don't use public spaces much I suspect so it is rare eg I am in a changing room or public loo.

On fathers changing babies - something my chidlren's father did more than I of, our gym has a space in the male changing for that and loads of fathers change babies in there. However not all gyms do.

(Yes, thank for the reminder - the green cake was Colin the caterpillar. I forgot he even had a gender and my girls loved him. Now there is a pink one so lots of parents will feel they must buy a pink one for the girl whereas before girls and boys liked Colin)

The question of why the many should suffer for the few is never very easy. If it's a simple issue like letting the one trans person in a building use the disabled loo that might be a good answer whilst they transition and before their penis is removed. Whereas if we made all wards in hospitals mixed sex just for the very few who are trans that sounds like more harm done (to all the women who don't men on their ward) than good overall.

monkey I'm shocked, though sadly not surprised, at the school's attitude. So much easier to hide behind a policy than to protect girls

I'd suggest that your DSD's parents raise this with the school as a safeguarding issue - which it is. Girls should not be expected to undress in front of any boy, let alone one with a history of inappropriate behaviour. It's not enough to say that girls can choose to change in the staff room - what about vulnerable girls who may not realise they are at risk or who have experienced sexual abuse at home and may have be able to set boundaries? Schools have a legal duty to protect children. DSD's parents should tell the school that it is failing to comply with its statutory duties on safeguarding and they will escalate this to Ofsted if the school does not act to protect all girls from being observed by a boy while changing.

Raising this as a formal safeguarding issue will make it much harder for the school to dismiss their concerns

II remember when I was in school some boys would ping bra straps, stand really close behind girls and rub themselveson them , make humping motions at any stationary female, make really filthy sexual comments etc and this was all just accepted as what boys did.

I was hoping that things would be different these days, and the blatant sexual harassment would be stamped on.

I am a single dad and it has been the case in a few places that the only baby changing facilities have been in the female toilets. It's very uncomfortable.

That's been something of a recurring theme on here. And I agree, it must be awful. You're trying your level best by your child and have to run the gamut of objection based on your genitals!

Equality does go both ways.

Are there no gents loos with baby changing facilities? How unenlightened.

I am intrigued, in the situation Monkey has talked about, what they would do if it was a girl known to have groped other girls. (Or a boy groping other boys). Would that be treated differently?

Agreed Datun. I did think at first what about no segregation. Just individual private facilities for all, like in quite a few leisure centres. But my problem with that is a lot of people like the traditional format. It seems a little unfair to deprive so many of their wants for a very tiny proportion of society. For me it's about respecting all in society the best you can, you'll never accommodate all of everyones wishes. But people should have a least some dignity and being made to go in facilities oppersite to your gender must feel degrading. I am a single dad and it has been the case in a few places that the only baby changing facilities have been in the female toilets. It's very uncomfortable.

But to provide an extra facility would cost business, charities and organisations such as the scouts. If this legislation was brought in it would have a hard impact on some groups. Does anyone not what proportion of the population identifies as different from their birth assignment?

But here we have the same problem, yet again. The myriad of reasons why people transition. From Elsa's child, who has a diagnosed medical condition which is crippling, to the fetishist transvestite who wants nothing more than the immersion in women's intimate spaces, to someone who is uncomfortable and restricted in their gender role and wants to switch part time.

As I said before, it depends on who you speak to last, or most, which determines your opinion. Which is why the arguments become heated and different standpoints collide.

A three way segregation is the only way in terms of bathroom use.

Treatment is another matter entirely.

The trouble is the way I see it is there is a huge diversity in how people identify them self's and feel. I don't believe that Transgender (phyically born a male but identy as female in this case) are some patriarcle plot to invade women's spaces. There is a whole range of people who feel different inside like those who feel genderless. I can not fully identify with them as I have not been in their shoes but I don't doubt the genuineness of most. Although I do know there are cases of confusion and people not finding where they fit in. This is why so much therapy is done prior to gender reassignment. And of course there are some for example who feel female but want to retain a dick. I am not in there shoes so who am I to judge the sincerity of their feelings.

My issue is in practical terms to what extent to we as a society accommodate the the wishes of a very small few at the cost of quality of life of all. It seems unfair to make so many feel uncomfortable to please a few. To use bathrooms/changing rooms as an example I would say that the optimal solution in my book would be to have a separate fully modest aditional changing room/toilets. This would give people including people who are just very shy and private in general a space. At the same time offering the same traditional arrangements for the vast majority. This would also be wanted by people who identify as genderless. Yes it could still be seen as discriminatory against Trans people. But this is not a situation where you will make everyone happy. I think this would be the best comprises to please all in society as much as practicaly possible. That's my best stab of using common sense to work it out.

I am also very shocked a levels of judgement going on about Trans people. Who I we to say what anyone is feeling deep inside. Also the PP has made and intresting point about use of reporting hate speech as a weapon. Badcat666 also pointed out their fear of speaking on this subject of fear of being chastised. I need the name of political correctness we are killing people's willingness to speak. I don't think to say I would be uncomfortable with a man in my toilet even if he identified as woman is hate speech.

The emphasis on the mental health of trans kids tends to overlook the fact that many gay and lesbian kids also suffer psychological damage, as do kids for plenty of other reasons. Yours is by no means the only child who suffers, Elsa.

I have two DS and both have suffered very considerably, one because of bereavement and the other because of his hugely disruptive, life threatening physical condition.

One self harmed, the other spent more than two years in a state of suicidal depression. The world takes very little notice of such suffering. It took years to get suitable treatment. It's not that the mental health needs of trans children are neglected, it's that the mental health needs of all children are neglected. The system is a disgrace.

I actually find it really offensive when people minimise what my child has been/is going through by saying "I wanted to be a mermaid/puppy/kitten/whatever"

Unless you needed years of counselling to come to terms with it then it really isn't relevant at all.

Gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder is a mental health condition (if it's still classified as that since the trans activists have been campaigning) being a mermaid isn't.

That's like comparing severe, crippling depression to being a little bit sad for an hour.

When I was younger (and slightly still today) I wanted to be a RL mermaid. Just swimming in the sea for as long as I live and singing to sailors (but mainly the swimming.. and diving underwater and swimming with the fishes).

However I will never BE a mermaid.

Growing my hair long so I look good sitting on a rock, sticking seashells on my tits, sewing my legs together and shoving a fin on my feet won't make me be a mermaid. I may look like one and think I know what a mermaid should be but I won't be a mermaid.

I am a human woman.

I don't give a rats arse most of the time but I am getting pretty fed up when someone born a man who then wishes to be viewed as a female demands to be called a woman, demand all rights as a woman and starts lecturing me on how to be a woman.

Being a woman is nothing to do with wearing make up, doing your hair nice or putting on a nice dress .

You can be feminine as much as you like and I have very effeminate gay friends and they actually agree with me. They don't want to be female but identity more with a feminine point of view but are still proud gay girly men. (My mate Marks words, not mine!)

One of my "girly gays" (again their words, myself and another girl are their honorary "girly gays") has even said he has started to feel pressurised by some friends in the LBDT community for not "admitting" he wants to be a woman because he sometimes goes "full on girly". But he has never wanted to be female. He just loves looking and being feminine but he still calls himself a man.

My mate Mark knows a lesbian couple down the road who could be viewed as sporting the classic "butch" look and we were having a natter about this in Marks garden earlier this year and neither has ever wanted to be male. They just like looking how they do and love each other.

They think it's another "media whim" that the media has picked up on and run with and is the current "hip thing" be be and talk about.

(I was terrified talking about this issue with my friends as I didn't want to offend them but god they made me wet my pants with what they came out with. I think a couple went along the lines of "My dick is my pride and joy! Why would I want to chop him off just because I look amazing in an off the shoulder dress?!" and "If they want to be classed as a woman then they should start sticking a knitting needle up their todger to make themselves bleed for 5 days so every month whilst punching themselves in their stomachs" (I have toned that down a bit to make it more user friendly)

Was M&S Colin the Catapillier the problem? Was the problem that the catapillier had a male name and thus some felt maybe in a way sexist? Therefore did people feel a need to make something blatently female to represent females? It's sad if that was the reason. Why can't a girl have a Colin cake? Why can't a boy have a Lucy the catapillier cake? Why are building divides? Or can we just have a plain old catapillier cake for all?

This growing pink and blue Culture is also a problem. I always used to love catapillier cake. Didn't realise they have changed to gender specific ones. EnormousTiger asks what's wrong with the green package. Well business I guess? If boys and girls want gender specific cakes and you don't offer them but your competitors do then that is a problem to your profits. People seem to be drawing a line in the sand everywhere

I

I didn't realise caterpillar cakes had changed packaging..I have had one of those every year for about 20 years off my mum, and now my kids get one too

What was wrong with the green packaged gender neutral one girls in the 80s loved?

I think that is why this is becoming so prevalent. Children are being told to pick a gender whereas before no one gave it a second thought. Now there's a 'right or wrong' decision to be made.

I think for me this raises a few questions/views:

The growing use of bulling using the hammer of of Hate Crime. Everyone is accusing everyone else of Hate Crimes. Total focus has been lost on what is an expression of personal thought and I line of thinking and what is a hate crime? It is something that is stifling free speech and has turn into a tool of oppression.

The rise of intolerance, lack of understanding across the political spectrum. Are people making any attempt to put them self in other people's shoes or just filling the party line?

We all want to live in an inclusive society (I asume) but to what extent are we duty bound to make accommodation for the smallest of minority at the cost of happiness of the vast majority?

I usually prefer nature to take its course but I haven't ever felt trapped in the wrong body and if I were I might well take them. So taking these drugs when young just feels wrong to me (I have never even taken the contraceptive pill and I am just about never ill unlike a lot of people so it certainly seems to work for me).

I have often been called a man on line just because I share human characteristics with other humans like liking work, being ambitious. If we could just be a lot more gender neutral in life things would be easier for everyone. Instead we more and more seem to push pink on little girls. My daughters always loved the caterpillar cake for birhtdays. We saw it recently suddenly after 20 years instead of being one cake in green packaging there is now a pink one. What was wrong with the green packaged gender neutral one girls in the 80s loved?

TheMortificadosDragon

I don't think there have been many studies done on this, to be honest. As far as I know, though technically hormone blockers are reversible, once on the path, a massively high percentage go on to take cross sex hormones. There is some evidence to suggest that once people have socially transitioned, it is incredibly difficult to 'come out backwards', as it were.

I think this is the reason why there are so few stats on whether blockers are reversible, because few people tend to stop. Whether that's because they are genuinely happy, or whether the encouragement to carry on is too strong, I don't know.

That telegraph piece states that the effects of puberty blockers is fully reversible. Is this accurate?

Ah - it seems there is more being done than I thought - www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2016/07/16/boarding-school-teachers-told-to-address-transgender-pupils-as-z/ Zie, very German (at least German has feminine, masculine and neuter genders as I remember from the very old days of my German A level....)