Trans media watch are lobbying mnhq

I am a trans widow & my children are now fatherless. This man emotionally abused me for years and disregarded our children's feelings in every way. I divorced him for 3 counts of adultery with other women and he recently "came out" as trans (with no prior warning or discussion with me) to our 7 year old daughter by taking her on a day out dressed as his idea of a woman (pantomime dame) with his new trans friends. She has refused to see him since. She and I are now told we are "transphobic which is a hate crime and will be reported."

I will support my children in their decision not to see their father because we are not obligated to associate with a narcissist or sociopath just because they belong to a protected class.

If I'd never found out about AGP, or read some of the nasty stuff on the net, I might be more open to the question of access if transwomen pass or have had surgery. But as surgery doesn't preclude AGP and passing is irrelevant, I'm not.

They wouldn't have to look or act in a predatory way either. Just standing there quietly washing their hands.

I honestly don't care if someone has a (harmless) fetish, knock yourself out. But I don't want to be an unwilling participant.

I imagine people who pass for the opposite sex totally convincingly generally use facilities that match their presentation as it causes the least stir. There are far more FTTs who pass than MTTs though I've heard some people say they can spot transmen by their "hobbity" appearance: broad hips, narrow shoulders, beard and often very short for a man. Most transwomen don't even get close to passing, and for those who are AGP passing may not be important to them, particularly if humiliation is part of the scenario.

"If I saw Buck in a toilet / changeroom I'd likely scream / run assuming they were male"

And if you saw Buck in a changing room you would scream & run even harder after seeing the huge PERVERT tattooed across his upper back.

Statistically, transmen on testosterone are actually slightly more violent than women. But nowhere near as much as transwomen and men (who are the same as each other).

You wouldn't know. But that's the point isn't it? You can't decide whether someone is a male predator, based on what they look like. It's about the biology and the fact that the 98% violent/sexual crime figure is committed by men. Not women who look butch.

It's what gives the ideology grounds (however spurious) in the first place

Only if we are being defensive. And even then we'd have trouble explaining how we's 'know' that Buck was a woman if we met them in the toilets or in a bed next to us on a ward, etc. I'd not have picked it... And some transmen do harm women.

Maybe if we were to foreground women's safety we would approach the issue differently? I don't know how, but I am going to think about it. Sometimes narrowly legislative approaches can get us boxed in to places that we may not like.

Having said that, I bet Buck proudly uses the men's room so it is unlikely to be an issue.

It's hard enough, with everyone trying to redefine what it means to be a woman. There is no way you can go down the road of whether someone looks too masculine, or to feminine. It's too subjective. It's what gives the ideology grounds (however spurious) in the first place.

Definitely. He looks like a thug. I'm talking at a legislative level.

I can't disagree with not wanting him in my space but objections to trans can't be on an individual basis, unfortunately.

I think it has to be more nuanced than that. If I saw Buck in a toilet / changeroom I'd likely scream / run assuming they were male. And some transmen do present dangers to women (because they internalise misogyny or act it out in order to prove their masculinity).

Is that muddying the waters?

Yup!

I can't disagree with not wanting him in my space but objections to trans can't be on an individual basis, unfortunately.

shiny - that's exactly how I read it. A high likelihood that we were seeing the psychological survival strategy of "if I can persuade myself this was an incredibly rare freak event which won't ever happen again, I'll be okay". And that's fine as a personal strategy - you do what you have to to keep yourself functioning in everyday life. The trouble comes when you generalise from that coping mechanism to how life should be for everyone else.

I'm exactly the same, badhairday. I credit it for keeping me alive and uninjured during two rapes and one serious sexual assault.

are we that week that we can't shout at someone to fuck off any more?

All very helpful for those of us who tend to freeze and dissociate.

Have to admit I just assumed that Allpart was a TRA troll...

Now they have gone, I can come out of my self-imposed closet and say that I would not want a creep like Buck Angel anywhere near me or womyn's space. Buck does look (very much) like a (hypermasculine) man and they actively promote the exploitation of women in porn (they manage an adult entertainment business). There are many transmen who are actively misogynist and even some who have 'raped' (note inverted commas) women. By 'raped' I mean misled into thinking they were men and had sex using a strap-on. There are complexities here and I am not sure how to address them, but TBH I'd be quite concerned re having to share some spaces with the likes of Buck and similar!

My thinking is that Buck and those like them should stick to men's spaces out of respect for women - most women would be worried if they saw Buck in their space, whereas men would not blink.

Is that muddying the waters?

Although I doubted Allpart's claim to be a female survivor of sexual violence, I did also wonder if this might be true and that her attitude to the trans debate arose from a desperate need to feel safe following the trauma of an attack. She did say at one point that she could only live by not believing men were potentially violent. That's why I thought it was better to disengage, rather than argue, however much I disagreed.

If Allpart is reading this, I hope you are OK.

I find it cheering that no one, so far, has been able to construct a justification for "transwomen are women" that withstands feminist analysis.

Allpart did seem fragile, even though she got so aggressive. All that internalized misogyny must be terribly uncomfortable. I understand, though. When I was very young I went for "bad boys". I wanted to be the special woman whose understanding would solve my tortured hero's problems. Until one day I woke up. Looked for healthy, equal relationships.

Allpart's attitude towards poor, suffering transwomen, with zero concern about the effect on women, reminds me of my own silly mistakes. It feels so much better when you grow out of that stage.

That's another thing actually. Although all was being provoking, to me, her angry posts had a strong undercurrent of personal fragility.

For me, the objections to the trans ideology are so watertight, I would love to see a more robust counter argument. It never happens. People either shriek and flounce, or stick their fingers in their ears.

Cote

all has flounced (MN is 'vicious and cruel'. I think she was getting a hard time on other threads).

So don't wait for an answer to your question.

"But there is no regard for their safety or their feelings. How is that not transphobic?"

Caring for their safety or feelings doesn't mean we must throw women under the bus.

The way to protect a 5 potential stabbing victims from a killer should not be to throw 5,000 others under the killer's knife.

But I do like how you seem to have understood that Telling women to open their safe spaces to males with no regard for their safety or feelings is misogynist

Or does that only work for trans people because... males matter and females don't?

I don't "feel" like a woman. I don't know what that means, apart from the physical experiences of being female. I am a woman. I feel like me.

"When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are"

But I don't feel like I have a gender at all I don't even feel like a woman, whatever that means. I am a woman. These things have nothing to do with "feelz".

When I say mental gender I was talking about the gender you feel you are, thought that was pretty obvious

But what does that mean, 1DAD?

Do you feel you are a man?
How do you know?

How do you separate feeling like a man and feeling like you?
Do you know how it feels to be some other man?
Is there some feeling that you can put your finger on that is 'man'?

I am a woman. I do not know how it 'feels to be a woman'. I do not know if 'feeling like me' is the same as 'feeling like a woman'. I do not know how it feels to be my mother or my sister, both of whom are women.

It is not one bit obvious that people 'feel like women'. Or 'feel like men'.

All:
But there is no regard for their safety or their feelings. How is that not transphobic? I understand that you are scared that weirdos will gain access to places, but I really don't think the way you are fighting it or talking about it or arguing it helps at all

So in other words, only the feelings and the safety of the transpeople matter.

The feelings of the women and girls and their safety are completely irrelevant.

And there is most likely some polite, meek, inoffensive way to go about putting our hands up and waiting for someone to give us permission to speak about it, but quietly, so as not to disturb anyone...