British woman 'arrested in Dubai after reporting rape'

The UAE is a country where Islamic / Shariah law is applicable and so its standards of 'justice' reflect Islamic values. I am disappointed that no body wants to say this, but it needs to be discussed.

Marte Dalelv, was another one and there's been so many cases like this in the UAE. Women and men have suffer terrible torture and injustice there. It is guilty of the most terrible human rights abuses imaginable. These include detention and torture of journalists and any political dissent, police beatings / rapes, union breaking, the prejudices of an Emirati elite against Indians, Bangladeshi and Pakistani workers is so appalling it's beyond belief. They ll are underpaid, enslaved and forced to live in horrible squalor.

I get very angry when I see adverts for The UAE as a modern, safe and attractive place. on C4 , between the news, where they pretend to care about equality and society. We should be boycotting the place!

I'm fairly certain there are laws on the books in the U.K. That mean men can't just go and commit sex crimes abroad. Can they be brought to justice here?

The UK has promulgated extraterritorial laws on child prostitution but generally the responsibility for prosecuting a crime committed by a foreign national remains with the jurisdiction where it was committed.

Trop, the kind of nuance I'm talking about is like in the phrase "sharia law reigns" - it doesn't. There is a system of civil and criminal courts in Dubai, that as I understand it, sit alongside the Sharia courts. Not everything is tried within a Sharia system. The laws and legal customs are a bit of a mixed bag - some British influences, some Islamic, due to the history of the Emirates, how they were founded etc. But I'm not sure how interested anyone would be in my meanderings on Islamic jurisprudence so I'll probably leave that there. I'm still thinking about the woman in the OP, and I'm glad to see that the gofundme has raised over and above the estimated cost of her legal fees, so hopefully it will help.

I agree with you in asking the question "how modern could it ever get". I don't know the answer, but I knew I didn't want to live there while they figured it out.

Sorry miffer, I misrepresented your post!

FreshwaterSelkie

I know it doesn't matter but I really have to say they were not my friends. They were DH's family, if they were my friends they wouldn't have been after that conversation. =D

OK I see. Its just that you said you believe that Sharia law is misogynistic and backwards. But then, that situation in The UAE is more nuanced? I just didn't understand in what way that was meant? To be honest, I still don't.

I can't really see in what way The UAE can modernise, socially/politically anyway? It certainly is wealthy enough to what they likes but there, rape is acceptable, Sharia law reigns and women have no rights. So how 'modern' could it ever get?

no, I'm not talking about personal responsibility. I'm not really sure what I can add to my previous posts- there's a dichotomy and a tension between what Dubai is and what it wants to be, between backwards values and modern forward thinking ones. That's what I'm trying to articulate. I personally believe that there is a universal set of basic human values and rights - and they are secular, so sharia law will never meet those. but writing off states that try to modernise doesn't really move anything forward.

Ok you said it's more nuanced than that. I dont really know what you mean. Are you talking about personal responsibility?

I didn't say that, trop?

If you were in, say, Saudi or Iran, you would know what kind of place you're in. The expected behaviour is very clearly set out, whether you approve of it or not.

While Dubai tricks you into thinking they are not misogynistic, when actually, they are.
That's especially vile.

I agree, anyone travelling to any other country/culture should respect the laws and customs.

But how on Earth can you say that Sharia law isn't absolutely incompatible with western standards of human rights?

Hope the second post explained it more clearly, tropezienne.

If you were in, say, Saudi or Iran, you would know what kind of place you're in. The expected behaviour is very clearly set out, whether you approve of it or not.

The problem in Dubai is that it wants to be seen as forward thinking, so it is actually very permissive, but that conflicts with a lot of Islamic values. There is a tension there.

I'm no cultural relativist, or apologist for Sharia law, which I think is misogynistic to the core, and backwards. But it's not as simple as saying "The UAE is governed by Sharia law, and is therefore incompatible with western ideals of human rights" - it's a little more nuanced than that, I think.

I'm fairly certain there are laws on the books in the U.K. That mean men can't just go and commit sex crimes abroad. Can they be brought to justice here?

Ok, I didn't see your 2nd post.

The problem is very much the application of Shariah law Fresh. Shariah/Islamic law allows a deeply misogynistic and intolerant culture to exist unquestioned.

The fact that it is applied erratically and hypocritically only makes it worse.

^sorry - the point of the "it's tolerated", is that someone who visited or worked there would have no reason to believe that they would not be believed if they were raped, because on the surface it appears as a modern enlightened city, much like any other. If you take it at face value, it's tolerant and open. It's only when you dig underneath that the problems start to become apparent.

Coming back to the point of "well, what did she expect? Extra marital sex is a crime there. She shouldn't have reported" - it is not that simple.

What you have to understand about cultures like Dubai is the level of hypocrisy that operates there. Any night of the week, you go into a bar and there is pretty open prostitution going on around you. It's tolerated.

It's not actually legal to drink, but it's tolerated (hotels are licensed so tourists can drink, but if you are resident there and want to buy alcohol you need a permit. Even then, it's not legal to drink in public, or to be drunk in public. As a sexist aside, I had to be on my husband's permit.)

It's not legal to have extra marital sex, but it's tolerated (nobody will check if you are married to whoever you are sharing a hotel room or apartment with).

The problem lies not with the application of sharia law, but with the arbitrary standards with which it's applied. You can get filthy drunk, shag whoever you want and chances are nothing will come of it - until it does. You piss off the wrong person, the police take against you for some reason or you otherwise come to the attention of the authorities.

Then any action that you have taken that would otherwise be winked at becomes a problem. It's a problem of "face", of "honour" - the authorities like to appear tolerant only in as far as it functions to make them look reasonable and strong - but that expires pretty quickly if they don't like the cut of your jib. Dubai likes to market itself as tolerant, but it is actually hypocritical.

I'm not surprised at your friends, miffer. The stories I heard from my cleaner and her friends would make your hair curl with the level of arrogance, entitlement and blindness to the realities of other people's lives.

FreshwaterSelkie

I know a couple who went there and came back waxing lyrical about the 'slaves' they had. That's actually what they said. They described them as "Filipino or something" and they would do "anything you wanted".

My brain nearly exploded, when I challenged them they were disgustingly blase saying that they wouldn't like to live like this permanently but it was brilliant for a holiday and they were sure the 'staff' were fine with it.

The logic JenLindley , which everybody seems afraid to say, is Islamic law.

I dont think anyone on this forum has ever aid there's no cause for women's rights struggle etc in Islamic countries ISaySteadyOn!

I've struggled to comment on this story as it hits a raw nerve for me. i lived in Dubai for a number of years for work, and i still go there soametimes to visit some dear friends who still live there.

I struggled to like the place, but to be honest, and I say this as a committed feminist, the sexism often paled in comparison with the naked, blatant racism. The caste system is alive and well there and the colour of your skin and your passport dictates everything about your life from where you live to where you work to who you socialise with to the shops you go to. For those at the bottom of the pile (manual labourers and domestic staff from the sub continent), life is horrendous. they're basically indentured. low wages, shit accommodation, high likelihood of abuse, exploitation, injury or even death.

as a white woman, it was also a sobering glimpse into what life is like when you don't end up at the top of the racial hierarchy (Emiratis are at the top). There is a real sense of vulnerability, and given the lack of rule of law and the arbitrary justice system, you are mortally terrified of pissing off the wrong person and ending up in jail. I had friends arrested because their landlord had done a bunk with their rent money. 2 days in jail while they sorted that out. another friend was arrested by the drug squad as her mother had sent her a scented pine needle stuffed pillow from america and they assumed it was drugs. fortunately her husband speaks arabic and was able to sort the situation out before n it escalated.

the final straw that tipped me over into "i can't live here any more" was when the norwegian woman was sent to jail for being raped in 2013. When the chance to leave came up a couple of months later i took it and ran.

so this case made me so sad. She could have been my friend or neighbour. And i also think about all of the domestic staff who have been raped and beaten there by their employers and who have no chance of recourse or justice.

The culture won't change. no matter how shiny it is on the surface, underneath that, the beliefs are still medieval.

well I certainly can't think of any good uses for you, user.

last, there are lovely men out there. I'm sorry you're feeling like there aren't.

Not banned yet, 147?

Opening jars?

Honestly, many many men are lovely.