LGBT Talks in School

**IAmAmy - that's what teenagers and trans people have described it as feeling. I'm not trans. I have no idea how it what it's like to feel your body and mind don't match. And I'm not going to deny that that's how they feel. If they have a male body but feel like a girl, I'm not going to deny them that. If that's their experience then I'm not going to just shit on it because I think I know best.

As a result, if I'm looking at trans issues we look at the experiences of trans people and we'll discuss it.

I don't believe personally in binary gender (despite many claims on this thread that i have damaging views and promote homophobia and narrow gender norms).
But at work i have a duty to teach PSHE, relationships education and LGBT comes up. It's not my job at school to spout my opinion on gender issues or invalidate the many experiences of trans people just because I view gender as a social spectrum.

I can't stand the kind of thing that the OP spoke about, just don't believe that discussion of trans issues is brainwashing.

Some of the replies to my post are exactly the reason why I felt there's a desire for an echo chamber on here and why I left it.

I don't consider Year 7 to be ready for anything like this and considering that they send home sex-ed permission slips, I'm wondering where the hell they didn't warn parents about this in advance.

Just to pick up on this, schools have a (I think statutory) obligation to educate children about LBGT issues and to support students who may be affected. It does get checked up on in Ofsted inspections. It sounds like the school haven't bothered to check the full content of the assembly, or at least haven't thought it through properly. Simply another box-ticking exercise.

In year 7 we certainly don't send home sex-ed permission slips, it is taught as part of the science curriculum. I don't know about the relationships stuff they do in PSHE, as I am not responsible for that, but I seriously doubt it. I am surprised that there are other schools who do.

The far left are cunning, they always go for the kids first.

I really dont care if someone is transgender, but stop polluting 11 year olds mind with crap !

I totally agree, and I am appalled at what the OP describes. For the reasons I explained earlier, and also because it will be very confusing for them when they then learn in science that there are male body parts and female body parts. (And there is already enough confusion amongst year 7s about their own body parts and sex.)

Fortunately nothing like this has happened in my school so far. I don't know what I would do if it did because I need to keep my job.

You're welcome ghostly. It's difficult but maybe talk to your daughter about gender stereotyping and how no-one should be limited by being a girl or boy, then ask if she's noticed any way in which it happens and have a discussion from there? That might also help generally if she's feeling pushed into a certain role at school in terms of subject, sport etc. Then also could help with understanding but also question outdated gender roles.

Thank you very much for saying that Hummus!

Okay Amelia I understand and accept your position on not teaching your opinion as fact. Teachers and schools shouldnt be mouthpieces for other peoples opinions either though, and these sorts of events make them that.

But then the two things arent comparable?

IE yes it is a fact that some people believe in x, but it is also a fact that other people dont believe in x. Either way, the beliefs in question are opinions not facts.

Teachers should be able to express that these are opinions and that opinions conflict with each other, and what evidence there is for/against those opinions. If discussing gender, shouldnt teachers have a responsibility to be clear that the genderist view is a theory and that there are opposing theories?

Vincent, I could say "it is a fact that I believe it isn't possible to have a matching body and personality". My belief is an opinion, though it is a fact that I hold that belief.

Similarly, it is a fact that some people believe their body and personality don't match. Their belief is an opinion, though it is a fact that some people hold that belief.

I don't think it is appropriate for me to express my own opinions very much in school, because:

1. I teach science so students (particularly younger ones) assume what I tell them is fact.
2. It could seem distressing and dismissive to any students struggling with these issues.
3. I need to ensure I create as safe a space as possible to allow the students to figure the stuff out for themselves. Expressing strong opinions is more likely to stifle debate and prevent students from engaging in grown up discussion.

What teachers can / can't / should / shouldn't say is sometimes very different from what parents want / don't want them to say. In most classes there will be children whose parents have wildly different views, and on anything even remotely controversial teachers simply have to stick pretty close to the middle ground.

*That doesnt make any sense, what youre saying is:
some peoples opinion that their body and personality don't match is a FACT
but
your own opinion that it isnt possible to have a matching body and personality is Just An Opinion.

Why is the first opinion treated as a fact??*

No, I think what Amelia was saying is that it is a FACT that there are some people in the world who FEEL that their bodies and personalities don't match. We might not agree with them that there is such a thing as a male or female personality, but it is nevertheless a fact that they FEEL that way.

Whereas my opinion that there is no such thing as a male or female personality is an OPINION in that, as far as I know, thee is no absolute proof that it's true.

I need to sk the dcs if they ahve ever talked about that subject at school though.
I suspect neither of them would mention it, esp if it was talking about men having a vagina (Having to say the word 'vagina' woud be enough to put them off. That and knowing I would then start talking about it lol)

IAmAmy I wish many more people, let alone teenagers, were as clear and articulate as you are

Except for the fact that the whole idea that you have to have a 'matching personality and body' is bollocks anyway. You can have any personality with the body you've got. There's no such thing as a girl personality and a boy personality.

Ah, well, admittedly, I would like to just punch people who say stupid things in the face (trans threads often inspire that desire). However, I am small, slender with thin bones, and don't build muscle easily. Therefore, this approach would not work for me.

One could say that my body does not match my personality. However, since the men in my family are not that muscular either, trying to change that with testosterone would be in vain.

I think it is a better approach to find different ways to react to stupid people.

Thanks IAmAmy that's a measured and thoughtful response. I suppose what I'm trying to ask (and I'll open this up to everyone now!) is how do we explain trans to children & adolescents? If what Amelia quoted "some people feel that their body and personality don't match" is wrong, what exactly should we be saying? I was trying to explain it to my DD who is 7 and I got completely tongue-tied and confused about what I was saying - on the one hand not wanting to say anything that wasn't fact but also wanting to encourage understanding and empathy for others. It's not easy!

How is the trauma experienced by people who id as trans any different to the trauma experienced by everyone else when gender stereotypes are used to limit us, or any different to the trauma experienced by anyone else with body hatred issues??

I don't know enough to say and I certainly don't dismiss what transgender people go through. They need support and help to live freely and happily. I think it could be down to gender stereotyping and notions of "masculinity" and "femininity" proscribed by society, pushing us to behave and act in a certain way depending on our sex, which starts almost from birth. So many believe it's natural for girls to act in a certain way and boys in others, so anyone who doesn't is made to feel they don't "fit" their body, or their "mind" is that of a girl when they're a boy or vice versa. I want no gender stereotyping and children to be free to be who they are.

IAmAmy Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. And also to help me get my head around it too - how would you describe the real angst and trauma that transgender people go through? I know you're not going through it and I'm not suggesting you should know, but how would you describe it in a different way to Amelia?

Amelia I'm a teenager myself. My issue is with "the body of a boy but personality and mind of a girl" or vice versa. This is a hugely damaging notion to teach anyone. I'd like to know what "the personality and mind of a girl" is?

That doesnt make any sense, what youre saying is:
some peoples opinion that their body and personality don't match is a FACT
but
your own opinion that it isnt possible to have a matching body and personality is Just An Opinion.

Why is the first opinion treated as a fact??

To be fair to Maisy, explaining these ideas to children and teenagers is hugely difficult. And you do HAVE to respect other people's point of view. I think gender is a load of bollocks, but lots of people don't. As a teacher I simply cannot teach "gender is bollocks" as a fact.

So saying "some people feel that their body and personality don't match" is fine IMO. It is a statement of absolute fact. If necessary (and with older students) I might discuss that some people decide to change their body to fit how they want it to be (and link with the work we do on body image), some people change their personality (and link with peer pressure) and some people accept themselves as they are (and link with anti-bullying work about how people are different).

I, personally, don't think that it is possible to have a matching body and personality, but I am not allowed to teach that as a fact because it is my opinion.

Maisy you said "somebody may have the body of a boy but the personality and mind of a girl". What on Earth do you feel is the "personality and mind of a girl"? I'd be pretty annoyed if one of my teachers thought like that.

Trans people feel their body and personality/identity fundamentally don't match. There's nothing wrong with saying that.

Except for the fact that the whole idea that you have to have a 'matching personality and body' is bollocks anyway. You can have any personality with the body you've got. There's no such thing as a girl personality and a boy personality.

Besides, there's a whole world of difference between telling children that some people feel unhappy being a boy or a girl and telling them that some men have vaginas ffs.

all children face these issues. The fact that some small number of kids are being validated because of the unexamined lobbying activities of adults is hardly laudable if it means that some other number of kids are being invalidated and pressured into identifying as something they are not.

Its like forcing the whole school to say prayers when only a minority follow the specific religion. Say your prayers if you want to, the rest have a right to refuse.

you see Maisy that is typical - someone disagrees with your utterly ridiculous statement and you huff off saying there is no room for debate...
Okkkkk

Wow. I've never seen such anti-trans views as the majority in my life. Safe to say that I've realised quite quickly that certain topics here on Mumsnet aren't for debate but just an echo chamber where any other view gets shouted down.
I'm certainly not promoting homophobic or gender conformity, simply stating that within secondary schools it's perfectly appropriate to explain what trans is, just as we would explain homosexuality and bisexuality in an age appropriate way. Trans people feel their body and personality/identity fundamentally don't match. There's nothing wrong with saying that. I'm quite a tomboy but my sense of being a woman is so ingrained that it would never cross my mind to think I should be a man. I have friends who are identify as butch lesbian, and they feel very much like a woman. They're not going to suddenly want to be a bloke.
Somebody isn't just going to wake up one morning and decide to change genders, and I trust the medical professionals who oversee cases. After all they're they experts.

Years ago i was wary of covering things like that in school, but then i worked with teenagers and young adulys who face those issues and became much more open minded.
Children do experience these issues/hear about issues in the press, from friends etc and there's a big difference between explaining things in a way that is appropriate and responds to teenage questions and actively promoting that everyone should be trans.
Anyway, I'm going to leave this echo chamber as there's no space for actual debate.