LGBT Talks in School

butterflies, I would complain about that! How old were the children? Something that traumatic sounds very inappropriate for children. Failure to protect a child's mental health is a safeguarding issue.

cisoff, I agree and understand the difference. Many of the highly intelligent women I am talking about also understand the difference, but they don't think the evidence is convincing enough. I am in no position to judge them for that because, frankly, I'm not an expert in the field.

Mind you the overall govt agenda to "teach" issues in UK schools is so sad. My child also was made to watch a real life situation of someone who choose to end their life. The kids had to watch someone die. Just to educate them of course. Seriously, what the heck?

Hummus, I have not (yet) had to teach this stuff, so all my answers are in the hypothetical situation where I was asked these questions. So I am not (currently) saying anything to the children about boy / girl minds. It simply hasn't come up in my classroom.

The point I have been trying to make is that if I were asked to teach it, I would have to toe the line because I am simply not allowed to teach my own opinion. I have to teach whatever the government / ofsted / slt see as "prevailing wisdom". In this one instance I would not be happy about it, but I can see why these rules exist.

Oh and it's Stonewall UK who run anti bullying weeks now.

This is normal. Anti bullying week is run by LGBT groups. So it's not anti bullying per se it's trying to teach kids not to exclude kids with differences related to LGBT. Now I don't mind that in itself any exclusion of kids by their peers is unacceptable. But the huge LGBT agenda is over the top and it should be stopped. However the govt rolls it out across their schools to try and make this the norm in the UK. I do disagree with it and I know that's controversial in itself but I'm allowed a point of view too.

I've just seen this tweet from a mtf trans: "Anyone who watches this prog and can't see that trans is biological is blind. Such conviction from the kids #kidsontheedge"

They were also the 1st mtf trans on a supposedly all women show.

Unfortunately, I can see that in 20yrs time, if it carries on in this vein, feminism won't be allowed unless it includes mtf trans. Women will have to shove over and move down the ladder to make way for mtf trans. Instead of 'just' coming 2nd to men, we'll also come 2nd to mtf trans and so will be 3rd on the list when it comes to our rights.
I hope to God that I'm wrong and that people 'wake up and smell the roses', so to speak.

"Even people I know who describe themselves as feminists argue that men and women are wired differently."

They're socialised differently. There is a difference.

OP I came across this the other day, it's an open letter to Rainbow Youth and Inside out.

It might help you to clarify your thoughts if you intend to put pen to paper. There is a lot of information there, and information that you may not want to even cover, but it is very a comprehensive and articulate piece that seems to crystallise most of my concerns.

I think if you're going to see someone at the school, it's a good idea to send a note before hand, clearly articulating your concerns. That way you can focus the discussion more, and not get sidetracked during the actual face to face.

Yet that would be a really good idea.

I also agree about the fact the trans stuff is nearly used by some teenagers as a way to 'rebel'. Or maybe after knowing they would need to sort out of they are gay or not, they now have to decide if they are transgender or not and thats a hell of a lot to 'decide' in the middle of the teenage years, that are conflicting in themselves.

Having a clear definition of what being trans is, and not just the fluffy 'I feel like a boy/girl in the wrong body', but talking about what it really is, the hatred of genitals, wanting to cut your penis/uterus off type of stuff, woud be a good idea. And if possible BEFORE they are really reach puberty so they arent in the middle of a vey conflicting time.
Lessons on gender, what it is, how it is constructed with BOTH sides presented (people who say there is such a thing as a boy/girl mind, influence of hormones etc etc but also people who say it's a societal construct, its ok for boys to be caring and for girls to like engineering, talking about the way your dress etc etc). Hopefully this would also shopow them that they are plenty of different ways to be a man or a woman and we never all fit the gender stereotype that society is imposing on us (plus it varies from one culture to the next and so on)

YetAnotherSpartacus

That's a good idea. If kids are 'bandwaggoning' but just basing it on a spot of gender non conformity, it might be useful to talk about gender dysphoria?

Obviously you don't want loads of kids suddenly decide they hate their 'bits', but on the other hand I don't think it sounds like quite as trendy a position to take?

Gender dysphoria is something to be taken very seriously but it isn't 'glamorous' and nor is it as appealing as a way of rebellion.

I'm probably not expressing myself well, but with all the attention surrounding transgenderism, I can almost see kids seeing it as something to 'aspire to'.

When you hear stories from parents whose children truly are going through a crisis, it's dreadful for all concerned (Elsa - on another thread).

Amy, on a personal level I agree. But when I'm teaching, I'm not ever fully myself. I have to be the teacher version of me, not the version who has strong opinions on things. The Brexit referendum really stretched my self control!

I so totally agree with this. What really irritates me is that those buying the TRA discourse don't have this dilemma. When I am in an instructor role I struggle with regard to how to phrase and say things sometimes because I feel that my very language (of sex and gender) has been stolen and censored. At times I feel like muttering Eppur si muove ...

When I teach it is to adults ... but what I was thinking here is that we could actually do something constructive and work towards a gender-critical friendly, biologically accurate way of explaining trans to children that would pass the political correctness police. Of course, people take their own meanings from conversations anyway, but if we could get some basic wording nutted out other teachers could also use it and parents could use it at home to de-program after children hear transactivist propoganda at school?

I have to say Amelia I would have much less issues if you were saying,
Some people feel they have a boy/girl body and feel like a girl/boy AND some people feel like they are who they are, not feeling particularly boy or girl.

Just as you would say
Some people feel that God exists and some people feels that it doesnt.

Because otherwise yu are giving only one side of the equation to children and therefore only one part of the answer.
No one woud dare telling children (in a on faith school) that God exists wo also saying that some people dont think its the case.
So why are we (you) happy to tell children about only type opf stories that tell tell themselves (or feel)?

Or is the issue here the fact that actually the 'instances high up' make it impossible for you to actually say 'some people dont feel they male or female. They are just who they are.'?
Does it mean that there is a strong need of lobbying from 'cis' people (men and women) so that their stories and their feelings arent eradicated by the stories and feelings of trans, so much so that they become the only way to look at the worl (you have male/female body and you can feel male/female, not just who you are).

Thing is, Amelia these things are going to come up more and more often now. And I think if you started down the line that there are no such things as girls brains and boys brains, if there is anyone remotely trans-savvy there you'll get called transphobic. And sent on another diversity course.

Boy brain

Girl brain

Obv

It is hard, but it these things don't come up that often. And I don't like to over estimate the influences of teachers compared to home and friends. If we were that important no teenager would ever drink, swear, smoke or have unprotected sex. And they would all do their homework.

Amelia I think it's so dangerously regressive. Get the feminists you know to read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine which exposes the nonsense about men and women being "wired differently" and how completely lacking in any scientific basis it is! You may well have already read it and having been an engineer and now teaching Physics know better than many how ridiculous the idea we're "wired differently" is.

Enid unfortunately I think it's becoming quite accepted. As I've posted, at my school's Fem Soc any challenge to the statement that anyone who identifies as a woman is one is considered unacceptable.

Boy / girl minds does seem very regressive to some of us (I used to be an engineer before I switched to teaching physics), but there are loads of people who disagree. Even people I know who describe themselves as feminists argue that men and women are wired differently. If I hear "that's what boys are like" one more time as an excuse for disorganisation I might actually scream.

I think that is part of what is so depressing about the whole thing - the number of people who are blindingly accepting of "male vaginas" shows just how many people really believe that there is such a thing as boy / girl minds and personalities.

I agree with that analysis het, and would make it far easier to deal with in schools. When it comes to religion everything is prefixed with 'some people believe' so there is no room for doubt in the childrens' minds that that they are being told is not an objective fact.

M0stlyHet another great post. All people should be supported to be who they want, dress as they want, have the interests they want and pursue the lifestyle they want and not be judged for it. Outdated gender stereotypes which still persist potentially making people feel they're "in the wrong body" are damaging for all and not least those who feel they have to change themselves to live as they want.

Amelia I agree, we often have great discussions with teachers on a range of subjects and it's nice they don't always claim to have all the answers. I can only imagine how difficult it was when discussing the referendum

I really do find the idea of "a girl mind"/"a boy mind" very worrying though, and think it's such a potentially dangerous and regressive thing to be teaching children.

Which is why I think that laws around freedom of religious belief and practice are a better analogy for trans rights than, for instance, gay rights. I completely defend people's right to say "I feel as though I am the opposite gender from the one I was 'assigned at birth'," I defend their right to wear what they want, ask to be addressed as they want, not to be discriminated against in employment, housing etc., just as I would someone who, for instance, chose to dress a certain way because their religion dictated it. But that doesn't mean I have to share their beliefs. And it also means that where our belief systems clash (for instance, my desire to get changed in a communal changing area without the presence of penises, versus their desire to change in whichever area they feel is more appropriate to their internal sense of gender) some sort of accommodation or compromise has to be found. And that might mean a gender neutral, private area for trans people - it shouldn't automatically mean that their desires trump mine (any more than, say, the Free Church of Scotland's desire to have the Sabbath observed should have trumped my sister's desire to let her children let off steam on a Sunday by running around in the park - the Wee Frees used to padlock the kids' swings!)

Amy, on a personal level I agree. But when I'm teaching, I'm not ever fully myself. I have to be the teacher version of me, not the version who has strong opinions on things. The Brexit referendum really stretched my self control!

If pushed further I'd reiterate that I don't have definitive answers to the question. That there is a range of opinions but we don't have time to go in to each possibility.

But then, I'm quite comfortable saying 'I don't know' to students if they ask questions which are beyond my understanding. It is a good thing, I think, for students to realise that teachers don't have all the answers and they need to work some things out for themselves or with their parents.

There are such a range of personalities and interesting minds at school, which of us has a "girl mind" and which of us have "boy minds"? All the ones like me doing Maths A Level? The ones who play rugby? The ones who have short hair and no interest in make up? Baffling.