Cat calling

grow. And I can see how that would be considered unfair. You have done nothing, but you are still getting in the neck somehow.

So just understand. Just have some empathy for people whose experience may not mirror your own. Open your eyes to casual sexism. Just be aware. Occasionally, preface your thoughts or actions from a woman's point of view. That is exactly how you can help.

When your wife says she doesn't know what we're talking about. Because you are not like that. Because you are a nice guy. You wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, and praises you for that and says she doesn't know what we're talking about. Because you are not like that. Because you are a nice guy. You wouldn't dream of doing anything like that, and praises you for your enlightened attitude.

You May not seek that, you may even not want that. But guess what, you get it regardless.

And what interest do you think men would have in "appearing" like nice guys Amy ?

Suppose you want to be a taxi driver.

Do you think a climate of apprehension amongst women makes it more likely or less likely that they will take up the job in competition to you?

You are with a,group of idiots, maybe you got stuck with them on a work away day. Maybe this wasnt long after you started your first job. They yell out look.at the tits on that. You laugh along because you don't want them to think you snooty. You just bonded at the expense of women.

You are on a crowded bus and occupying two seats. A woman gets on, has had aggro before, decides to stand rather than ask you to move.

The first and the third, you probably aren't even aware that women modified their behaviour to give men a bit more space. The second, you are, and you feel uncomfortable, but you think it wasn't that bad, you got a bit of a tight smile back (not realising it was placatory), maybe she was flattered

I have little doubt you will twist my examples, but there's some suggestions for you. HTH.

This thread really has gone pear shaped hasn't it?

You are confusing fault and responsibility. Am I at fault for all the men who cat call? No of course not. I am also not personally responsible for the world I grew up in. I am however incrementally responsible for the society I pass on to my children and their children. I actually could't give a fig whose fault it is to be honest, but a problem there clearly is.

Women are clearly not catcalling themselves here so there is nack all they can do beyond name the problem as they see it and then the rest of us work on dismantling the conditions that l normalise it.

It may not be our fault we find ourselves in a society like this, but it sure as shit will have become our fault if our children are still having the same argument 30 years from now!

The very argument you are making is privileging men over women. BY MAKING IT ALL ABOUT MENS FEELINGS.

Men also have advantages over women in many ways for it, in being able to live life far more freely and more cheaply too.

Men get the benefit of seeming like "nice guys" for not engaging in the behaviour. They get to look decent for walking us home, for looking out for us, for warning other men or boys who harass us at parties say off, for generally protecting us against male violence. This is often something women and girls are grateful for, say thanks, praise a boy or man for. This wouldn't be something which could make boys/men look good if the risk of male violence wasn't ever present.

What benefit do I get from other men engaging in behaviour that makes women scared of me or resentful towards me ?

About it being ingrained.

And yes, what Datun said.

What comes with this sort of debate is the development that men should recognise that they benefit from the immediate oppressors and cat callers. No matter if they are Grauniad readers and know how to pronounce quinoa.

Is that too much of a push grow? I only ask yourself as I think you will be the only person here who might struggle with that.

What do you think?

Your wife may be the sort of person who can brush it off, she may enjoy it, it may genuinely have never happened to her. I'm sure she has good reasons. She's not here so not going to speculate further. Anecdotally I don't accept that's the case for the majority of women. Which is why this is a women's issue.

Like for example, why would a young man not be worried if he didn't know where he was and how to get home ?

Now you're just being a GF. I'm done. Watch the damn TED talk.

I didn't know how I was going to get home or even really where I was

Like for example, why would a young man not be worried if he didn't know where he was and how to get home ?

grow. One last attempt. I have ZERO doubt in my mind that your wife has not at some point altered her behaviour because of what is perceived as male violence.

She wouldn't walk home by herself down an empty street in the dark ? She wouldn't get into an unlicensed taxi cab? She'd be happy wandering around town alone in the early hours? She thinks nothing of walking the dog at midnight in the woods? It's ingrained.

"My last two name changes" ? wtf are you on about ?

And Dervel clearly does feel responsible for other men.

I'll try and write this as honestly as I can in the interests of hopefully making it clear that I am not out to (deliberately) offend everyone. What you're asking of me is to accept that women have a shitty time of it compared to men, and that as a man I have to accept what women tell me about their experience (as long as I listen to the right women, and not the ones who throw other women under buses). In your opinion it would be better to be have been a man ? I can't say that I've ever really thought much about whether being a women was worse than being a man, I assume this is what is behind all of the MGOTW and whatever else exists to deny this analysis. Simply that you cannot deny the experience of the opposite sex and that if you get enough together to express the same idea it seems like they all believe it.

What about my daughter - would you accept that it might be difficult to accept what a bunch of strangers over the internet tell me rather than my wife, about the female experience, someone who I love and respect ?

There was a cartoon in a paper years back re a news report that contained nothing but stories of male violence. The women in the room were looking at the one man there with increased anger. He was receding more and more into his chair.
grow those women were not holding him especially and personally accountable for all the bad news items. I am reading a lot here that you ARE feeling you are being held to account and so getting a wee bit defensive.
But the v least you could do is stop the undermining and justifications and divergences from the OP. I would like to helpfully remove that massive spade from your hands. In the least patronising way possible.

Do you suggest that we don't share our experiences anywhere at all in case it will make women who don't feel it's a problem for them uncomfortable in some way? This is a feminist board.

grow Instead of defending yourself, watch the TED talk. Then come back and tell us if you get it. If you don't get it, tell us why.

Using the 'why men go to war' argument on a thread about girls suffering from street harassment and women being concerned about predators is just shit.

But I am being held responsible for it.

No, you aren't.

You've had this explained to you in some detail on both of your last two name changes, so I have to assume that you are being deliberately goady for effect or merely obtuse.

When people of colour discuss white privilege and how it affects their lives and the steps that they are expected to take to avoid racist behaviour, I do not assume they are talking about me specifically, unless I have done something of that nature. If I have, I listen to what they have to say and how it affects them and try to alter my behaviour in order to stop doing things that will adversely affect them.

When feminists discuss men as a class, how that class of person affects their lives and the steps they are expected to take in order to avoid behaviours that can be deleterious to their wellbeing; and you have not undertaken those behaviours, then the conversation isn't about you. You say you haven't perpetrated street harassment, so therefore no one is blaming you for doing it.

Just in case you've forgotten, here's some:

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/9429520

Pear, weren't you on a thread a while back with some stats about street harassment percentages?

As regards various comments about lesbian separatism, I just feel like I could do with some at the moment!

To not have to think about these issues whenever you go outside, because there are no men there (well, or only gay men). Needs an island somewhere.........

To only let women into where you live, to not have to talk to men over the garden fence, or on the phone. To just not have to engage with men at all............

To only read books by women, to only have conversations with women, to only spend your emotional effort on women, to only care for women and be cared for by women.

I think I need a lesbian retreat............

Have you asked your wife specifically or are you assuming that she hasn't been subject to this? Perhaps she is lucky and hasn't experienced it to the extent it hasn't been an issue for her. I've experienced it a little but not as much as others due to where I grew up as a teenager. More so as a young adult, and now much less so as I am getting too old for men to notice.

I would think where I sat on a near empty train or platform. I was once very scared when I was unexpectedly on my own in a part of London I didn't know at 1.30am in the morning, and I didn't know how I was going to get home or even really where I was. Has nothing like that ever happened to your wife, grow, ever?

growapear you are awful. I and all my friends have been, so many women and girls report similar, but since my personal experience isn't good enough for you that says it all about how far you'll go to minimise the issue and perpetuate misogyny by doing so.