Cat calling

Datun

I agree with you and am actively working toward solving the problem! There we agreed on something lol

Rufus

Cat calling is verbal harrassment, using different contexts to judge the same action is perfectly reasonable. If cat calling is misogyny, then prison men who cat call other prison men, gay men who cat call other men, women who cat call men, and lesbians who cat call women are all misogynysts? I'd argue they were all in the same psychological states, the sooner we get to what that is, the sooner we stop it!

Or we could just keep calling misogyny, alienate more men and women from our cause, and succeed in a Trump style reaction to not having an honest debate?

But yes, I'm not sure why you are trying to draw parallels with male on male violence in prison (where there is an absence of women - duh!) and male on female intimidation in the street.

scallopsrgreat

Perfect.

I'd love to see a bit of software which shows the layer upon layer of reasons why men can be violent.

And how the targets of their violence can simply change their behaviour and magic it away.

"So if misogyny is the reason for cat calling, how do you explain when there is an absence of women, men still cat call other men (prison system)?"

Other reasons Pizan . I didn't actually say misogyny was the reason for sexual harassment. I suggested that men perceiving women as weak and misogyny are one and the same thing. But we'll run with that as I think misogyny is a big factor in sexual harassment (the clue is in the name btw).

People can have more than one reason for doing one thing to one person and another thing to another person. So someone who sexually harasses women is a misogynist. Someone who shouts abuse at PoC is a racist. Men who shout at men in the prison system are trying to intimidate them. Maybe it is homophobia. Maybe it is an absence of women that leads them to play out their violence on other perceived weaker men?

With all of those intimidation is a goal.

pizan

We are talking about STREET harassment

Prison is nothing to do with it

Actually WE are not talking about it...the vast majority of us are talking about it

Such a weird argument..

OP - i am unhappy with being cat called by men in the street, i find it intimidating and they only ever do it to women

POSTER- well it happens to men in prison

OP - oh thats fine then...i will fuck off shall i?

POSTER - i did not say fuck off...i am using facts and logic, please be honest in the discussion

1) Do you want to fix the problem?
2) Do you believe understanding the offender is an important part of reeducating future offenders?

Yes. What's your answer!

The more I think about this, the more it's annoying me. I think what piz is saying (although it's difficult to tell) is the chances of one being attacked outside the home are statistically low. Which we all know.

And therefore our fear is more unfounded then we think it is. Which signally fails to take into account the 90% of victims who have been raped inside their home. Telling these people they have no need to fear, because the chances of it happening outside are far less is ridiculous. People don't stop feeling frightened because of a statistically lower than average risk, once they have already been included in the statistically higher than average risk.

If 'managing your fear and repugnance of cat calling' is seriously asking women to disregard their lived experience the author is
focussing on the entirely wrong area.

Scallops

So if misogyny is the reason for cat calling, how do you explain when there is an absence of women, men still cat call other men (prison system)?

Datun

You find it moot as the victim, I find it very usefull when trying to solve the problem.

I have 2 questions:

1. Do you want to fix the problem?
2. Do you believe understanding the offender is an important part of reeducating future offenders?

venus

It is male on male violence, but it is related as in it is riskier for a man to be in public than a woman. So the rhetoric of walking a woman to her car is not statistically whats best for the man or the woman, the man is more likely to sexually assault the women, and the man is also more likely to be assaulted in any form than the woman. So by walking to the car herself she and he are both safer. Make sense?

Whether men do it out of a sense of misogyny or whether they do it because they perceive a weakness, or whether they do it to bolster their status in the group, it all feels a bit moot when you're being told to 'get your tits out, love'. Well exactly. I'd probably say, though, that their perception of weakness and misogyny are one and the same thing when it comes to catcalling women.

Another day, another set of patronising posts. Tra la la.

51- you showed great presence of mind with that incident. Really brave. Not surprised you were worried though

And also, if we do not take "easy, common sense" steps to protect ourselves from rape, many people think we should consider ourselves partially responsible.

That is male on male violence. It has nothing to do with male on female sexual violence.

Piz Whether men do it out of a sense of misogyny or whether they do it because they perceive a weakness, or whether they do it to bolster their status in the group, it all feels a bit moot when you're being told to 'get your tits out, love'.

You say we shouldn't feel like victims. Could you explain, using the stats you say you have, how switching a mindset from 'victim', to 'equal person', will make a difference?

For what it's worth, especially as one gets older, I'm not sure 'victim' is the right word anyway, unless it escalates to serious abuse. Indignation, pissed off, irritated maybe.

Whatever reaction one has, it's certainly usually negative. Can you explain how having a different reaction can alter the behaviour? Using stats.

I think what gorwapear is saying is that men have the right to converse and initiate conversation with anyone.

Which brings up the question, what constitutes negative comments, and what constitutes positive comments from strangers to another stranger?

Venus

Also, statistically, there is a greater chance of violence happening to growapear by a stranger than you (I am assuming your female). It really is the victim narrative that reinforces womens fear of being in public.

Why would you think men have a right to harass women?

Growapear, you do realise that is often given as "self-defence" advice to women by concerned authority figures on how women can protect themselves from rape. Oh you didn't? Guess it's just one of the many things you don't have to think about.

that doesn't give any man the right to shout at her, harass her or treat her in any way other than respectfully in any setting.

That's actually interesting and goes back to my earlier points - why does he not have the right ? Or what or who gives women the right ? Can those "rights" be taken away ?

And I don't know if it was just a joke, but if you really are carrying a can of hairspray as a makeshift weapon to protect you from men, you should really speak to a teacher about how you are feeling.

'Firstly, that's yet another rude and dismissive comment about women'

I think you mean a few posters on this thread. Most women don't state facts that are not correct, and most women don't have an agenda!

You are falling into the echo chamber that is online chat rooms. I emplore you to go and converse with prominant alternative feminists, non femenists and men and empathise with their stories before making your mind up!

WWA

You have missed some conversation, I have addressed numerous reasons why men do it (not mob mentality btw) in groups and individually.

There are some studies that review how children act toward others in different scenarios, and in all cases of power and dominance shows it is gender neutral. The weak amongst the group are targetted despite their sex.

The same way men cat call women, they verbally abuse weak men, the elderly, as do young women now also. The reports of violent young women are on the rise.

Similarly men do the same thing to men when there is an absence of women, in prison sexual assault if prominant, as is sexual asautl by prison staff. If men hate women, why do men act the same way in the absence of women?

The definition of 'working to understand' is pretty straight forward, I work within the community to understand behaviour.

Sorry just to clarify to other posters I meant "don't need to" as I know full well how damaging street harassment is, but it's really good to be able to read so many great women discussing it and articulate so well what I feel on it.

"...can only hope she doesn't take too much rhetoric spewed as fact". Firstly, that's yet another rude and dismissive comment about women discussing experiences of street harassment and secondly I don't need to as I have the facts of my own experiences of street harassment.

venus

I think pizan is not wanting to talk to Amy becuase the "women should take responsibilty" argument doesnt work with actual children

I work to understand why it happens

The only comment I've seen you make about why it happens is your suggestion that it is down to group dynamics / mob mentality among men. (Unless I've missed something else you said?)

But you then ignored the fact that many posters said they experience this fom lone men.

You appeared to deny that it has anything to do with men wanting to intimidate women or to do with misogyny. But then said that men do it because women are weaker. You don't appear to have delved too deep into why women are perceived as weaker in the public sphere (clue: strength is relevant but it's not the answer), despite being asked a few times.

Your definition of 'working to understand' is somewhat odd to me.

Pizan, it is absolutely nothing like your example. You cannot compare Amy sharing her own upsetting experiences and being supported by older women to a 16 year old boy getting validation from older men for treating women like shit.

You are the person trying to derail this thread. Not anyone else.