Cat calling

Strictlypan

No, I am very much female, and a feminist, and in fact if you are trying to disable my points by calling me a man, and therefore mysoginist etc then please just read what I have posted!

Iamamy

Where have I changed the discussion, cat calling in groups is a social competition, and can be explained by psychological needs to secure positions within a group. It isn't about the victim, it is about the group, which is why it happens to men in male prisons, to women in female prisons, and to men by females (trust me it happens I have done it). Have you ever been to a male strip club? Have you ever seen a hen do with a young male bartender or waiter etc?

My point is not pro cat calling, it's pro honesty, you cannot blame all men, it's not honest to blame all men! It's not fair to say it's happened to all women, thats also dishonest!

What we can say is that it is bad, but if we understand why it happens we can come to a clear concensus on how to treat it as a problem.

Do you not think so?

It's reassuring to know the next man who tells me to smile then decides I'm a miserable bitch who needs a good shagging or who tells me he would then decides I'm not all that and a cocky bitch for ignoring him is actually not sexist at all because prison violence.

No, I think PizanFan said she was a woman on some other thread.

You are being patronising, again! Looks like it's your style. Just because you think I'm spouting rhetoric doesn't mean I haven't read or understood what you've written. I simply don't agree with your reading of it.

Pizanfan you are changing the subject entirely. This thread is clearly about street harassment. I have suffered street harassment since I was 14, in school uniform and in home clothes, from all kinds and all ages of men. I have never had any from women (unsurprisingly) nor have my brothers or any boys I know experienced it from anyone. Why is it that cat calling is suffered almost entirely on the street, across the world, by women and girls and perpetrated by men?

Do I pick it up correctly that you are male, Pizan?

Speak

You're not readin what i'm writing, your concluding men think of women as objects, but ignoring when men do it to men (prison), when women do it to women (prison), or when women do it to men.

I find your opinion wrong because you are ignoring what is being said and reiterating the same rhetoric, so please just answer the question:

If men think of women as objects, as evidenced by cat calling, and group dynamics have nothing to do with it then please explain prison violence, in both male and female prisons, and lesbian domestic abuse rates?

Scallops - you ask why are women weaker than men? seriously? Are you talking physically? emotionally? Intellectually? what are you talking about to frame that question?

How horrible that so many women attacked you for defending the other woman and objecting to catcalling. I agree that it's horrible, intimidating and demeaning (as it's intended to be). I don't know any girls my age who don't hate it even if some have sadly accepted it as just one of those things which happens to girls and women. I just hope I'm brave enough to start challenging it one day, unfortunately it can turn aggressive even just ignoring it so actually answering back is something I'll have to build up to confidence-wise.

There you go being patronising again... there is another explanation for why people are responding to you how you expect...

Theyre also not important to 7 billion people worldwide.

As much empathy as I have, emotions and opinions are what they are and well it's not to me to invoke anything in other people.

Just to add to my prison comment, it isn't just male prisons, or even male groups. Female prisons and lesbian relationships are also very violent, including cat calling in the lesbian club community, how does this fit the cat calling scene?

I really don't try to sound patronising, but when I respond to peoples points, and I think very rationally, and just keep hearing the same rhetoric without acknowledgement of my comments ir prison rape, then you can see why i'm dumbing down my responses to hammer home my thoughts.

I can apologise for the condisending nature, however it is pretty obvious people don't want to acknowledge facts, or aren't understanding them.

You said it yourself, Pizanfan, that for men that catcall, it isn't about the victim. That, for me, is because they don't think of women as equal human beings. It is symptomatic of a sexist attitude, whether knowingly or not. So I would like to see it stopped, and the fact that some women may like it doesn't change that fact.

Why are women 'weaker' than men?

Feelings aren't right or wrong.

People should not do things that are potentially intimidating to other people. I'm sure those women who find it flattering being told to 'Smile, love' will be less affected by it not happening to them than those who are intimidated/angry/upset having it happen to them.

Just like some people like to be beaten up - doesn't mean to say it should be allowed.

Scallops

Thats a very valid point, if it isn't about the victim, then why do men always do it to women?

They don't, they do it to weaker people than them, see male prisons and statistics on intimidation, violence and rape!

Speak

And thats a very valid point, one we have not discussed yet. A cat call from typical scenario ie building site, night club, on the street with groups of young men, or as the OP stated a group of young boys etc is childish and need adressing.

A guy on his own is a different story, and his actions can range from perfectly innocent and attempting to start a conversation, to very sinister. I would be more wary of this type, however would a man run for his life if a woman said something to him on the street? I am not scared of men in general, and would comfortably confront him, given the scenario obviously.

I'm not sure who mocked me for trying to understand why people do what they do, but it's quite simple. Criminal investigators study criminal psychology, in order to understand why someone does something you can recognise how to stop them doing something, the OP asked how do we stop this?

Like every other problem, we understand why it happens and work out how to stop it from happening, if you think having the victim decide the justice then the problem will always persist.

The other issue is that some women actually like it to a point, react positively, and encourage it. So if we are to acknowledge everyones right to think and feel what they want, then who is right, the opposer of cat calling, or the promoter?

Oh you got what I was saying

Sorry just reread that and it came out a bit wrong. I'm not really speaking to you on that as I suspect we are on the same page! I'm agreeing with you that the problem won't be solved!

Absolutely scallops.

Except the problem isn't solved Speak. Because men will carry on intimidating. It's not actually sorting out the root of the problem at all. Just the symptoms.

This isn't about "group dynamics". For a start this is done by lone men too.

Why do these men only catcall women? If it were about place in the group (and I'm not denying that plays a part when groups are involved) why pick on women?

Saying it isn't about the victim totally erases the valid feelings of the victim. They are the ones humiliated/intimidated/upset. It also isn't true. Just like racial harassment targets certain victims.

"Whats wrong with being strong, and trying to promote strength within other women by explaining the scenario that scares them." Except that wasn't what you were doing - you were calling women who were scared, hysterical. But if we are on the subject, why are men putting us ion the situation where we have to stand up to them and 'be strong'?

Saying you have refused to be a victim implies you think that some women do choose to be victims unreasonably? Is that right? We should all be as strong as you, which is just a simple choice we can all make, and then problem solved?

Why is nobody reading what i'm saying, i didn't say 'chin up buttercup' and was not rude or harsh, I was trying to explain why men do what they do, why women act similar sometimes, and that when it has happened to me I have refused to be a victim.

Whats wrong with being strong, and trying to promote strength within other women by explaining the scenario that scares them.

PS I've cat called plenty, at comedy shows, at strip clubs, and on the street. In the right scenarios it is perfectly acceptable, in the wrong scenario it is disgusting and you have to stamp it out.

Blimey, PizanFan, you are hard work and patronising.

Wtf has group dynamics got to do with it? Men on their own do this too. What are they doing it for?

Is it along the same lines as Brexit & Trump's election?

I think part of the problem is that the women who do see it as a compliment are fed up of being told they're wrong, they're misogynists, their views don't matter because some women don't like it.

I think that's what's wrong with people. 2 sides shouting each other down and neither listening.