Cat calling

grow

All I see is someone using intellectual arguments to try and desperately disassociate himself from the class of men. During the very act of which, has shown little empathy for, or affinity with women and their experience. Attempting to undermine their experience by invoking the opinion of your wife and suggesting that the answer lies with women simply refusing to have any relationships with men.

I can't help it that you were born a man and that you find it distasteful and 'conflicting' to be part of that group. I suggest you growapear.

Yonic

Clearly im talking about "romantic" relationships being avoided as a simple risk reduction strategy.

hahahahaha

This is too cute, do you really have this little self esteem?

Grow:
What you demand is that all men even the vast majority who abhor violence and intimidation take their share of the blame for being men.

That isn't what is meant by this notion at all, and I doubt what Dervel posted.

Essentially you take responsibility, in some form, for the reduction of harm caused by our fellow males, instead of ignoring it/keeping quite as this is viewed as agreement - eg the situation I had a work over 'nice tits' comment at a female worker and ending up arguing with the boy's dad.
It isn't taking blame for who we are (which D. has talked about a lot on this thread) it's recognising the damage done and doing our best to reduce/avoid it. You do again seem bitter at this notion and still wish to see it as a 'not my problem as I didn't cause it' personal issue.

So after repeated appeals to you (and I'm often pretty patient over this stuff with my fellow man in a different context) I don't see any benefit in engaging with you.

Fucks sake. Read the post. Are you really that thick that you interpret my post as "men have a right to rape their wife" ?

Wow grow.

Which elements of the UK allows wife rape?

Datun

Read it again. Its just meant to be a rhetorical question about what a right actually is....I think you actually knew that tho.

I'm glad grow has revealed his true colours.

Strictly - you completely missed the point and as is typical, attempted once again to attribute an opinion to me I have denied at least 5 times in this thread.

Dervel

Rights are afforded according to a legal and judicial system. In some jurisdictions men have a right to rape their wife. Your high faluting moralistic tripe about human potential is nonsense. A "right" does not exist without the rule of law behind it. So when we talk about what is and is not a right, we should remember that rights already granted to women in our society, were granted by men, this is simple fact. To say that oh no, our society is shite and it's men's fault, what society is better ? Has there ever been one ? All I see here is typical self loathing liberal miasma. Women already have protection under law in this country from street harassment. Who will typically be required to enforce this law ? Who will be chained to violent criminals in the dock ? The idea that men are blind to male violence and simply aren't interested in fixing it is what I've been arguing against this entire thread. What you demand is that all men even the vast majority who abhor violence and intimidation take their share of the blame for being men. All those women you thought peers ? Nope by your own backwards logic they are actually all better than you are because you got a massive head start and they still achieved the same as you. Thats your message to men and you wonder why there is a backlash against ideas like white male privilege.

Perhaps you think that the right not to be beaten up, or the right to a fair trial fell from the sky?

Grow

By trying to detail what I thought you meant I was trying to assist you, however since then not even I can help with your level of questionable valid opinion, you've dug your own grave here!

I thought the loud voices thing was yourself grow being sardonic. It appears not.
Grow- it would really beneficial for all of us I think, if you put the spade down and read stuff rather than type stuff.

Pear has conveniently avoided my point, similar to Amy's, that even if friendships and relationships with men are avoided, family and colleagues/classmates cannot be.

But since his,argument the last time he spoke on this topic was that men should be able to approach women on the street, because he wanted to be able to, dammit, I doubt much has changed.

I missed this !!! They don't have a right but they do.

I don't think they have a right, but you think they have no right to shout at people, but they have loud voices - why shouldn't they have the right to use those voices to direct abuse at people ?

You ARE the problem.

I don't get why my (much) earlier idea to issue advice to women to avoid having personal relations with men is also ridiculous

Because men don't come with a warning grow. It would be great if they did. It would be more than useful if they said 'three years down the line love when you're pregnant/at a low ebb/grieving for a parent, my behaviour will escalate and I'll lump you one'.

Funnily enough, many women who eventually manage to leave this violence do avoid relationships.

Dervel great point, I was astounded by that "we have rights because men guarantee them" nonsense for so many reasons but that he's derailed and diverted all over this thread complaining about "men being blamed" according to him yet seems to want us to be thankful for any rights men decide to "give" women says a lot.

Thanks Dervel, that's exactly what I was trying to get across to grow before the derail about whether he was objectively a "decent man".

The last post was full of the derailing all your posts have been. You're clearly on this thread and probably board to divert topics and cause arguments, for whatever reason. As for your going on about "avoiding relationships with men", I luckily have great relationships with my dad and brothers but would have no choice about having relationships with them either way seeing as I live in the same house as them, and regardless, seeing as the men who've harassed me in the street are completely unknown it's ridiculous you think it's "really that simple". But then you don't actually care about what women and girls receive as has been abundantly clear for quite some time. How lovely this issue affects you so little you can spend time derailing conversation about it for no reason and dismiss women.

Our rights are given to us by men? Well this brings the context of your posts into sharp relief.

Women only have the rights we as men deign to give them? What an absolute unvarnished pile of epic bullshit.

Basically you're saying women's requests to not be harassed is not sufficient grounds for us (as men) to give it to them if it means men have to take responsibility as it's more important that we don't.

You have spectacularly shot yourself in the foot there. I can't apologise that men do this to women, yet men as a class are rights dispensers. Well that makes us responsible you dingus.

Rights are inherent, founded on human potential we all have capacity to reach. What needs to be guarded against is when someone (you in this case if you aren't following) is when someone through violence or oppression seeks to undermine this.

Grow you do seem to be expanding on things you have not much understanding of. And unfortunately you still appear to be taking things through your prism of "personal". You are it going to get very far until you stop doing that, if I may say.

Women using sprays is a very common practice and probs condoned by police authorities.

Relationships with men? I'd think you need to talk to someone in RL about that point. Posting on here doesn't appear to be having much affect on your appreciation of the intricacies and "manageable risks" often involved.

I said street harassment was wrong pages ago, what I dislike is the attribution of the problem to all men and their attitudes to women. Would you care to respond to any of the points in my last post - or is that it ?

Your point without all the twisting and turning and derailing? Do you or do you not think street harassment is wrong?

Whether i think of myself as a "decent" person or not, is neither here nor there. I've never met anyone who would not say they themselves were decent, so a self profession of decency is largely worthless.

So you're not a decent man, you think it's the law of the jungle, you're ignorant and minimise and dismiss street harassment and how it makes women feel. That cover it?

That saves me bothering to debate that with you then.