Cat calling

pizanfan you've stated your opinion that group dynamics is the only theory that explains men catcalling women. Does it explain why those men feel that they can catcall women? Why is that the avenue they take as a reaction to the group dynamic? Why does it involve humiliating women? Why don't they pick a different activity?

Growapear

Why would you not report that to the police? We are all equal, you were sexually assaulted, cat called, and intimidated...

Thats the crux of my argument, women are being infantilised and told they are victims, whereas men actually ignore it.

The people on this thread will argue we are all 100% equal, that men aren't any stronger than women, but women are always the victim, does that make sense?

growapear - yep, all those things too. But having my bum pinched regularly as a waiter when I was young and beautiful IS nowhere near, as you say, the shite women have to put up with. Which you Pizan seems keen to obscure for some reason.

Well that's up to you. I'm educated as well as I can be at my age, I may have little life experience but sadly I do have experience of this topic, which says a lot about it. My mental well being would be vastly improved by men not cat calling me.

Iamamy

I have ignored your posts since you told me your age, I dont feel comfortable having to respond to someone that young with such little experience or education. Please don't take that as an offense, it has nothing to do with you personally, it's just that having experience working with teens I understand the responsibility people have on their mental well being, especially young women.

You have to understand I am a strong feminist, and I will happily fight for womens rights (if and when we lose any), and against anyone who hurts another person or animal. I dislike dishonest people who accuse one race, gender, or religion of something while preaching equality.

I don't want anyone to harass anyone on the street. Seeing as it's pretty much entirely men doing it to women and girls, maybe that should be the focus and they should...stop.

As a young man I twice had random women try to strike up a conversation with me as I was merely going about my business. I had my bottom squeezed several times in nightclubs, I even recall one girl, after I had walked past their group on the way home, run after meeting and start making a growling / purring noise before her friend pulled her away. There was that time in the student union the girl sitting next to me just lay down and put her head in my lap. I could actually go on...but there is of course a very clear difference which was that I loved all of it and never once felt threatened. So women do do it, but we can all surely agree it's not the same.

It's interesting when people use opinions on harrassment by other genders.

As I mentioned earlier, gay men can be very sexually agressive, and my OH has been grabbed so many times I have lost count, you know what he describes it as? It's not harrassment, as when women call at men they don't find it harrassment.

When you start vicitmising and infantilising all women you don't do justice to women, empowerment and understanding is so much more effective in lifting women up!

If we all believe men and women are equal, then we should recognise the equally poor behaviour when it occurs, and currently it occurs more toward women by straight men because of the power dynamic, once we empower women and change that power dynamic then we'll see women do it to men, as the trends have been showing.

Pizanfan you have completely ignored every post I've made refuting your points.

It is scallops. When I was in New York in the summer it happened to me every single day I went walking about with a couple of (female) friends. Even in school uniform it happened a fair few times here, never mind normal clothes. There is absolutely no way men or boys are cat called by men or women anything like regularly, most probably never will be in their lifetimes.

Scallops

I'm not sure you understand what constitutes an honest discussion. I am trying to explain that your narrative is ignoring my points, and you keep replying to me and character as a person, this is intimidation, not what I am doing, which is using evidence and opinion to highlight my point.

Please exaplin how i'm intimidating you? By being smart, or by disagreeing? That seems pretty fishy.

We were discussing male to female harassment, but if you disagree why science says it occurs, then I have to frame the discussion in simpler terms by using female to female, and female to male harassment as an example.

You can't deny my points that group dynamics effect behaviour, then deny my evidence when I use other examples to prove my point. Thats dishonest.

An yy IAmAMy - the regularity is an important point.

*by men to women and girls I meant.

It's really frustrating to see this topic being taken in this direction when it's something which is so commonplace for girls and women, and often so intimidating, for me and my friends anyway.

Men will abuse weak men on the street, not because they are men though.

Never heard a lesbian cat call another woman. In certain scenarios I've heard women catcall other men.

That still doesn't mean that when men harass women on the street there isn't a level of sexism/misogyny/intimidation because they are women.

oh give over Pizan. I live in the gayest city in the world, outside of San Francisco. Our Village is, or used to be, a fav place of mine in the City. Your DH is talking nonsense.

How bizarre that myself and every girl I know has not only experienced cat calling but have had numerous instances of it already whilst no boys I'm friends with ever have at the hands of anyone, and StrictlyPan is also confirming that neither he nor any man he knows has. It's ridiculous you're bringing this up when street harassment of men happens to women and girls so regularly.

Oh sorry Pizan I missed that. Well you were the one who said it - what context did you mean it in? That's why I asked the question.

Men do cat call each other on the street, as a regular patron of LGTB clubs my OH gets almost molested on a regular basis!

Gay men are very aggressive, especially toward straight men, but you have to realise it's the dynamic that makes this, not the gender! A group of gay men will cat call a lone straight man, if they know they are collectively stronger than them.

Men will abuse weak men on the street, women will cat call a lone young guy they deem themselves stronger than, Lesbian women will catcall women on the street...

Your ignoring all these scenarios because you don't want to hear them!

There is a real problem with violence, but again it's strength based. Women commit domestic violence in near similar rates these days 40% (not cited), and domestic violence in the lesbian community is higher than the countries rate.

So how do these stats link in with your comment of 'male violence'?

Your ignoring so much to focus on this man is the problem narrative, when evidence doesn't back it up. Why?

There are so many issues in this country and world, honesty about them is key to fixing them!

WIth regards to weakness, I'm waiting for context as I asked earlier.

Okay. Pizan , men don't cat call each other. I'm a male, never ever been subject to this, and no male I've ever known has. We would have mentioned this to each other. On a very odd ocassion a group of pissed up women on a night out may have shouted stuff. BUT this is a world away from the harrassment which is being referred to here.

I'd also say it's disrespectful in the extreme to undermine someone's experience as a victim, and suggest they should be eracting in a wholey different way. fwiw

And the only person not having an honest discussion is you, Pizan. You introduce spurious 'scientific evidence'. You introduce male on male violence in prisons when we are talking about male on female harassment and then get arsey when someone calls you on it. You dismiss women as being hysterical for being intimidated yet then you tell us men do this because women are weaker than them - so are in fact trying to intimidate us.

Men don't catcall other men on the street, Pizan although I'm sure amongst the annals of history one man somewhere will have been catcalled.

I agree, they do intimidate, bully and rape other men. There is a real problem with male violence. If men do intimidate other men on the street it is not because they are men. It is because they have some other perceived 'weakness' in the eye of the perpetrate e.g. race; sexual preference; disability (see where I'm going here) or they have had some separate kind of argument/dislike/unpleasant interaction. It isn't because of their sex.

You didn't answer my question about why are women 'weaker' than men.

No, no attempts at anthing there. Pizan. I'm sure you doing a fine job without any assistance.

Just honestly wasn't clear, that's all.

IAMAMY

Is that really what you got from that? Are you twisting what I said, or just didn't understand it?

Why can't we have an honest discussion?

I'm 16, I'd need fake ID to get in a male strip club. I didn't even think there were many/any, there are strip clubs with women stripping all over the place in every city around the western world though. This is still completely different from the street harassment women and girls get regularly, from men, which is just not suffered by men or boys. As for "in groups", I've had as much if not more cat calling from lone men as from men or boys in groups. Who's blaming all men anyway? Most men probably don't do it, many men do. The majority of men who don't should challenge the men who do to help stop it.

Speak

Don't get offended, stop avoiding my points, it really would be that simple. Have i not acknowledged peoples opinions when they make valid points? Have you responded to my points or questions?

No, you want to insult my writing style, instead of engaging. Why is that?