Cat calling

"The other time was on the street at early hours in the morning...I saw a women 5 yards from me actually pull her top up FFS."

Dude, you are so very much lying.

Pretty much, Silent, yes. That and disagreeing is attack...

I would be concerned where it could go if I didn't say "thanks"... Yep, good point!

Whilst I agree there are different types of catcalls I'd not be flattered if a man said to me, on the street, out of nothing "nice eyes". I would be concerned where it could go if I didn't say "thanks", which I wouldn't want to do, as I don't want to be commented on as if I exist for men to judge. Compliments should be in a social setting or one in which it wouldn't be potentially threatening to the recipient.

Thank you for the agreement StrictlyPan!

But if you were never catcalled again, ever, Miffer, would that be as bad or worse than being catcalled and feeling intimidated? Would you miss it? Or would you find that you don't need that validation.

Just a thought experiment as I know exactly where you are coming from. If a bloke said to me 'nice eyes' I'd probably be quite flattered. 'Smile'...less so! There is a wide variety of types of catcalls!

^^ I meant to change that first line, I am not happy to be cat called. I meant my initial emotional reaction is one of happiness.

If I am being honest I would be happy to be whistled at, it gives me a confidence boost.

Realising this makes me reflect on my own socialisation as a woman. I would describe myself as a radical feminist, I am active in some feminist causes. I have raised my sons to know that catcalling is wrong. I know catcalling is wrong. Yet it still makes me 'happy'. This is how fucking well programmed I am, despite my education and views my emotional reaction is gratitude at being validated by a man.

Now if you aren't a radical feminist, if you aren't active in feminism and feminist debate but your gut reaction is the same as mine I would imagine you need to justify it. I like it so it can't be bad! I can't like and participate in my own oppression therefore it is not oppressive.

To go back to cocklodger's original question, this article from the HuffPost has an interesting list of things you can do to combat street harassment:

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1228198

I am if a different sex, age and other stuff probs to Amy and I am agreeing with her. Her age etc isn't relevant here and your patronising her was pretty awful.

Tell women they are victims, they will victimise themselves! No they will gain validation that what they feel is valid they will know that is the perpetrators who are in the wrong and that is not dependent on their ability to cope with it.

Are men and boys catcalled all the time by as they go about their business, by groups of women? I'll ask my DP later if that happens a lot on his way to work, or during his lunch break. Maybe it happens when he takes my DS1 swimming?

I haven't said you are intimidating me .

I've consistently said men do this to intimidate us. You are the one saying on one hand they aren't doing it to intimidate us and then on the other hand they do it because we are 'weaker' than them. So in fact they are doing it to intimidate us.

I have ignored your posts since you told me your age, I dont feel comfortable having to respond to someone that young with such little experience or education. I am truly shocked by that comment. So patronising. Do you need education to have felt the effects of street harassment? How much experience constitutes enough? I'm considerably older and agreeing with IAmAmy. Do I not have enough experience. In fact I would say street harassment gets less with age so, in fact Amy's youth is very relevant.

Amy

I'm not ignoring you, we've adressed your points earlier in the thread, individual responsibility etc...

People are cat called all the time, women have the higher rate of it right now, why?

If your question isn't why, and you don't want to find out why then ask yourself why you don't want to know that!

But to be honest, you have to look at power within relationships, in group and out groups, group dynamics etc...

People as an entity use power over other people, men in prison do it to weaker men, lesbians do it to weaker women, men do it to women, groups of older women do it to young men, gay men do it to men...

It's about power, and their place within a certain setting, not about intimidation, therefore if we keep calling women weak and victims, then it is highlighting them as targets.

My partner is a gay man?! Who said that?

I made that assumption based on your repeated observations about your partner being regularly harassed in gay clubs.

"As I mentioned earlier, gay men can be very sexually aggressive, and my OH has been grabbed so many times I have lost count"

"Men do cat call each other on the street, as a regular patron of LGTB clubs my OH gets almost molested on a regular basis!"

I made that assumption that as your partner, with a male pronoun, is frequently in gay nightclubs being harassed on the street (in a nightclub. how does that work?) Given I know very few straight couples that frequent gay clubs, either he's receiving harassment because he's not welcome in gay clubs because he's straight with his female partner in tow, or he is gay.

"PS I've cat called plenty, at comedy shows, at strip clubs, and on the street. In the right scenarios it is perfectly acceptable"

Nope. NEVER acceptable. Perhaps you are part of the problem.

*attacked

Why do significantly more men than women feel that catcalling is an appropriate response to the group dynamics they find themselves in? (If we are to believe that group dynamics is the only driver here). Is that better?

(PizanFan, if you feel you have been personally attached, do please report those posts)

My goodness this is frustrating. Women and girls are cat called ALL THE TIME. Day in, day out, from about when we're just teenagers. By men. It sometimes turns aggressive. It's intimidating and demeaning. It simply does not happen in anything like the same way or with any kind of regularity to men. As for this "group dynamics" men do it in groups and on their own as I've already said. But then you're ignoring me so I don't know why I'm bothering.

Silent

Please go reread the thread, that was a comment without knowledge of thread development

Interesting...Had a quick look at Group Dynamics on google Scholar. Nothing about cat calling or sexual comments. The only discussion of male and female is hidden from preview form so I can't read it. What I can read is mostly a fairly standard first year psychology textbook. I can remember a few of the examples from my degree many years ago.

It's stretching it fairly far to suggest that group dynamics as discussed in that particular publication back up your assumptions as expressed on this thread. You'll need to do better than that. D-

So let me get this straight :we women shouldn't be upset by cat calling because it happens to men and because lesbians catcall people too?

I feel like I've wandered into CIF on the Graun. Can't we have a discussion about this without a derailment into men's issues?

I have to go now, will log on later.

Can I just say though, it's nice to not get personal attacks and insults, we can disagree without attaking posters.

I will catch back up, really enjoying an actual debate lol

No, I absolutely was not intimidated, that's the point.

My partner is a gay man?! Who said that?

Speak

Reread the only 2 men on this thread, they both are reporting being grabbed in public, cat called and layed upon etc,

If your question is 'why do men feel like they can do this?' then why aren't you asking the question 'why do women feel like they can do this?'

I beleive in individuals, most are nice, some do silly things, but my argument on group dynamics holds up when the 2 male commenters receive the exact same treatment in the same group dynamics, however view it differently.

Which was my point originally, perception is massive, I'm told to be carefull walking to my car, and out at night alone, despite having a tiny chance of anything happening, and if I was male have a much higher chance of violence etc...

Tell women they are victims, they will victimise themselves!

Equal doesn't mean the same. I have equal worth to my DP. He is massively stronger than me, so we are not the same. I am physically weaker than him and nearly all other men. It's not a judgement just a fact.

So your partner is a gay man? I thought you said you were female?