Cat calling

Thanks for answering my question pizan

I did think you might have missed it, it was a fast moving thread

Sorry iamamy

Such a shame. I thought that you'd be able to stop insulting us all, but apparently not.

First instance: aged 14, in school uniform, walking from the Underground station nearest my school to school (5 minute walk in busy area), man in a suit (on his own) taps me on the shoulder and tells me I'm a "good looking girl" who will "tempt many boys".

Most recent instance: in home clothes, walking to my friend's house, two young men shout at me that I am a "buff ting". I totally ignore them as it's a quiet road, getting dark and I do not wish to have this interaction. I get told "you're nothing special you fucking up yourself bitch".

That's the first and last, the ones in between are too many to remember or list. I am sure that many boys are suffering this constantly at the hands of women and girls.

Speak

When I did teach, which I don't anymore, there was no need to get frustrated with students who would have open minds, infact only once was I left speechless in a classroom setting, and it was by a self styled feminist uniersity student who refused to believe in fibre types, as it was racist to think there was a difference in races anatomy.

However this setting isn't a classroom, and I didn't come here to teach, I came here to discuss, however infantilisation and victimisation seems to have bred a pack mentality on MN, in which anyone who disagrees is clearly evil, thats pretty lacking in my opinion.

Unbelievable that the person who dismissed my experiences because I'm apparently lacking in education due to my age complains about being called "names". I told you about the street harassment my friends and I have had since we were about 14, in school uniform, out, from all kinds of men and you dismissed me. I don't think you, defending men and bringing up prison violence to dismiss women's experiences, should be complaining about anything on this thread.

I didn't think anyone would really notice tbh.

Rufus

Apologies, I didn't see that question. It is yes, however I'm not an avid enthusiast, I was staring at a City of Ladies peice of work while searching for a name.

I didn't think anyone would really notice tbh.

So start again. What are feminist harming issues we can help with ?

When you teach your students, if you feel they don't understand you, do you berate them and tell them how amazing you are and how dim they are? Or do you think that perhaps you haven't explained yourself as well as you think you have, and think about how you can reframe and rephrase your points?

People have listened to your opinions and assertions, responded to you, and then simply not agreed with you. You seem to think that's the same as not understanding you.

I'm not asking anything, i'm here to discuss different things, gain some insight into other things maybe, and on occasion challenge some feminist harming attitudes.

I asked you a question on the other thread but you didnt get a chance to answer

Is it pizan after christine de pizan

Pizanfan

Keep educating the men. It can only help.

What exactly are you asking from us?

It may well be, i'm pretty entitled and passionate about this subject, I get frustrated very easily by people refusing to listen or acknowledge valid points, especially when I react openly and honestly about valid points made by others.

I think you will find i called your posts rude

I think its your way of writing

Ok, so on this page I have been called a liar, not a feminist, my OH is assumed gay, my own research is from a male perspective, I'm rude, I look at things from a mans perspective, I'm part of the problem, oh and been called Dude... (i'll accept patronising and condisending, mainly because I have to be to hammer a point home to people who refuse to listen).

Despite all this I do will continue to fight for everyone of you, man woman or child.

What is a little bit odd, is that it's fine to disagree with me, I like it, and I enjoy the debate, but the debate has to be honest!

I view everything I say and do as pushing to empower women, and advance the feminist cause, however I think my brand of feminism is clearly different to a lot of new wave gals, I don't believe in the big bad patriarchy, I trust a broken system can be fixed. I don't hate men, I seek to educate (with a firm hand if necesary), and I have intertwined my passion for womens rights and opportunities with my career at certain stages throughout the years.

You may dislike what I say, but it isn't opinion based on anecdote (although some of it is obviously), it is opinion based on research. I need to hold a discussion that is fair, true and stands for every person on the planet, using specific contexts to judge the scenario's, otherwise what I preach will be dismissed by people I educate (mostly men) because I'm too extreme.

Noone ever learnt a lesson by being called names and attacked, they require empathy, involvement, and the chance to critically analyse within their own space.

How many have you have seen results to fixing cat calling by telling men they are sexist and oppressive? I guarentee noone has, whereas I've viewed young male students take responsibility and offer solutions to behaviour they have admitted to.

I was massively put off by Pizanfan's tone but if she is saying some men cat call to bolster their status within their group - well duh.

That might well be the primary objective, but the secondary objective (subconscious as it might be) is to intimidate otherwise it wouldn't work (i.e. If they got punched every time they did it). All evidenced by the fact that if you do stand up to them it turns nasty pretty quickly. Then, intimidation becomes their primary objective in order to maintain (or reclaim) their status.

The perceived threat is very real. Who wants to be followed down the street with nasty insults ringing in their ears.

I'm more likely to get direct abuse/threats than (okay, I refuse to call it cat-calling because it disparages cats for starters!) than supposed compliments, but it is all street harassment. In some ways, the direct abuse is slightly easier because at least if someone asks you what he said, they can understand straight away that he really, REALLY wasn't trying to be nice, or become your friend, or start a conversation, cos, you know, he's a nervous straight guy who finds it hard to chat-up women.............

The supposed compliment, well gets you coming and going! He can always claim he was just trying to be nice! If you react aggressively, then you get labelled an uptight feminist or a lesbian. Or, as some have already said on here, you get the initial, automatic, pleased reaction, then the disgust at the depth of your own training.

And I'm just so angry that we are still struggling, however many 'walking through NY' videos we make, that this is an issue for women, and not a great turn-on or just a bit of fun.....................

Women are raised to seek and value male approval. Feminism was invented, in part, to raise women's consciousness about how women have been raised to find males abuse, and exploitation of them appealing. Women who say they like catcalling are acting exactly how they have been trained to do, a feminist would not blame the woman. She would blame the male society, that trains women to find their own exploitation at the hands of males appealing.

It is no surprise that those who like to defend offensive male behaviour always like to try and say "lesbians are no better than het males". Lesbians are not males, they do not commit the vast amount of rapes, sexual assault, child abuse, and violence against women, etc., that would be men. Of course men control the institutions that define and record these things. It is disingenuous to pretend males have no horse in this race. If they could find a way to make lesbians appear as bad as males they would, without hesitation. Both excusing males for their behaviour, and claiming lesbians are just like het males comes from misogyny, does not matter how it is dressed up.

Pizanfan is looking at things from a males perspective. Studies on behaviour are generally carried out from the male perspective (see the debate between Kohlberg and Gilligan about male centred research in psychology). Unfortunately presently there are very few women with a real feminist analysis, challenging male assumptions in the social sciences. This is having, and will continue to have, dire consequences for females in the real world.

Males see women as sexual objects and possessions, catcalling is seeing females as sexual objects. Catcalling also reinforces males higher status to himself, the woman he is doing it to, and any others around. As it is saying; I am a male (it is my right to sexually objectify females), you are only a female (you exist only as a sex object). Of course it will bond a male more to other men, as it is demeaning one group of people (females) to enforce the superiority of another group of people (males). Males bond over the sexual objectifican of women, in order to create a feeling of superiority in themselves in other ways also. i.e. Going to strip clubs, watching porn together at stag nights, going to brothels together etc.

Thinking that if only females do these things too it will make things ok, is false reasoning. It assumes that females are of equal social status to males, and have equal power in society in the first place, which is false. This is why the guy that dances around shaking his bum on that advert is considered funny, he's status is not lowered, if a woman did that hers would be. It is why women are intimated by males catcalling, and males are not if females do it. The sexes are not valued equally in society.

pizs posts seem to be rude, patronising and condescending

Very hard to ignore as well

I've been an out lesbian for 30-odd years and I have NEVER been catcalled by another woman (or catcalled one, either). Now, I'm not saying lesbian relationships are all kittens and rainbows (and I agree there is a problem with DV in lesbian and gay relationships, but sticking here to the issue of the thread which is catcalling) but for me one of the big pluses of being a lesbian has been living with less of that stuff.

I would never say 'lesbians have better relationships' - all kinds of relationships can be good, bad, or mixed - but catcalling is not about relationships. It's about men objectifying women and putting them in their place. I have never had a woman do it to me, ever, and I'd love to see the 'scientific evidence' that lesbians do it as much as men.

scallopsrgreat

Cat calling is all bad, it doesn't matter that it has never intimidated me or that I get an initial 'buzz' from it. It's all bad.

What I didn't mention was the feeling of self loathing after this initial 'buzz'.

Can we ever EVER talk about an issue that affects women without someone coming along and saying

" you need to see it from a man's point of view "

Or " it happens to men too " .

The entire Internet is FULL of men's views and men's concerns . There are plenty places to talk about street harassment of gay men , dozens of LGBT forums and sites . There's even a LGBTQ board here on MN. This is feminism and it's about WOMEN. The clues in the name .

Could all you handmaidens / MRA just jog on and let us talk please .

I dunno what alternate universe Pizanfan is living in, but in terms of gay men and lesbians, the only time I would ever have expected to see anything like that is on the gay scene where someone has obviously made a big effort to get dressed up. Not on the number 9 bus when you're slogging into work on a wet wednesday.............

Because (apart from straight visitors, and straight hen-nights etc) on the gay scene, there is some feeling of ownership of that space, for a small amount of time. Whereas on the street that isn't Old Compton -- men feel they own that space and establish that by the means that we all know. After all, they aren't just throwing out random comments at everyone they walk past, in order to make us all feel happy, they are statistically-significantly being aimed at women by men. And the sexist nature of that dynamic doesn't disappear even if the women can con themselves into thinking they don't mind it, or even if some of the women (or even many of the women!) like it. It's a thing men do to women they don't know. Which, if you want to get all academic, would tell you a lot about the way the sexes interact in public spaces. The fact that they think it impresses other men, or the fact they need their buddies as back-up in order to do it, or they they think women like it, or that they intended to be nice, or whatever, is irrelevant compared to the bare statistics, it's a thing men aim at women...................

Feminism 101 frankly, which makes me think that although they may be a libertarian, Pizanfan isn't a feminist in anyway I would understand the word. Ye shall know them by their opinion to street harassment (yep, and I mean Paris Lees as well! :-) ).