Cat calling

Sorry for your experiences Amy

Xenophile

The flaw with your argument there, is when applied to other ethnicities or religions its automatically racist or xenphobic!

If I was to claim that I feared all muslims who openly practice Islam, because you can't prove to me which just practice Islam, and which will commit terror attacks then I would rightly be called xenophobic. It's exactly the same thing.

Datun

I disagree, there is a lot we can do against street harrassment, we just have to empower women enough that they deal with it correctly. As I said previously I had 2 men sent from their jobs for shouting off a roof, by calmly and civily explaining to the foreman that if he didn't deal with the unacceptable behaviour on the spot, I would ensure his boss did.

The reason Strictly doesn't consider unwarranted groping by females sexual assault, is because of his view that he is more powerfull than women, and therefore the incident was not truly an offence. Well thats wrong, it was an offence, he was groped innapropriately, at his place of work, by a member of the opposite sex, that is assault.

Began to lose me here...

*Ok I see your POV, and will ask you to read a book named Group dynamics, by Forsyth (5th edition).

That would be a decent start, and then we can move on to more nuanced literature?*

and finished me off nicely by saying catcalling had nothing to do with women.

its basically the same old line

how were you behaving Miss/Ms/Mrs ..........

Pizan, your only contribution to this thread has been to derail, insult, dismiss, minimise, and patronise. I don't think I've ever read anything like it, and that's not a compliment.

Op - I know what you mean. I agree about catcalling (like the majority of posters on this thread), but there is also something uniquely depressing about women colluding in their own oppression by seeking to silence other women who challenge that oppression. It's very dispiriting, and scary, so I understand why it would make you feel as it did.

how can the evidence be collected on cat calling

is it men admitting to cat calling

a group of men being watched (which they will know about) and studied how they behave

is the research evidence from girls (yes its not just women) and women's experiences

I don't think anyone would deny that how groups play our can be very different depending on how many people are in the group, who is in the group, ages, class, ethnic background, religion and so on

Deffo Xenophile

God, it's not complicated.

Good post Xenophile.

Pizanfan

I think the reason people thought you may not be female, is because there is very little one can do about street harassment. You either ignore it and let it stand, or retaliate and risk further abuse.

Nobody is demonising men. Nor is anyone infantilising women.

When you come up with a sure fire way of distinguishing between the type of men who just don't know how to stop blurting out stupid comments and the type of men who become violent and abusive if their comments are responded to in the way they desire them to be, then and only can anyone suggest that women are wrong to be wary of men who do this.

That isn't demonising men, that is asking men to take responsibility for the way their words and actions are likely to be perceived, based on the available evidence and the way women are socialised from young girls to be wary of strangers. Which, while incorrect information (because we should be far more wary of relatives and family friends) it informs women's lives and cannot therefore be rationalised away as infantilisation.

It is also true that women who fail to follow the social rules laid down for how they interact with strange men, who are then harmed by those men, are blamed for it because they failed to "know" that those men would harm them.

*Scientific evidence would disagree with your opinion that catcalling is designed to make 'women feel small and scared'.

Ask yourself what type of guy has catcalled you? What was the situation? and why did he do it?*

Sorry, I was expecting a magic answer. Not 'tell them to sod off, so you're not a victim'.

I don't feel victimised if someone cat calls me, just massively pissed off that they interrupted my day with their banal macho bollocks.

Which brings me back to my points, ignore how I am saying what I am saying, I get frustrated and speak out of tone as much as anyone else on here, but the message I am promoting is one of pro woman, pro feminist, and certainly pro honesty.

Demonising man and victimising/infantilising women doesn't help anyone.

I am wondering that too

sounds like an empower yourself mantra

How so?

I was in an advisory role for all, I am not idealistic enough to know that the real world won't impliment purely research driven initiatives, and cost effectiveness and popularity has to be prominant, but these initiatives will develop over time to more focused ideals.

If some of these designs didn't pander to the current trend, then noone would be interested and they would fall short before getting off the ground, so despite disagreements I have with them I understand we are building something, and therefore am happy to contribute.

Two great initiatives. But I thought you were talking about something revolutionary and we had been stumbling around in the dark completely missing it ?

Which model of psychiatric care are you referencing there?

Thats why I try to empower, women need to address the issues that will help them, not what will keep them in a system that exploits them!

How? Genuinely interested.

venusinscorpio

So it isn't possible to rationalise your way out of victimhood? Psychiatry would disagree, mainly because they wouldn't exist if they did.

It's not about switching a switch, and poof, alls ok. But it is about turning a corner, and deciding you don't want to be a victim anymore. Once this is done the long hard slog to mental health can begin, it can't begin if people keep reiterating how much of a victim someone is.

I'll use another example, nyctophobia isn't rational, it's based on fear and infantilisation, and can be overcome. Being affraid of all men, or generically men, is very similar to fear of the dark. Neither can be condemned, both can be overcome.

I've also worked with sexually aggressive teen males, I would love to chat about that at some point with you, especially the morther nurture paradigm in sexually aggressive young men (although this wouldn't be the place).

OP I bloody hated being catcalled and routinely harassed, too. I say 'hated' because it hardly ever happens now that I am an old crone middle aged. It feels amazing to have that freedom and to be released from male scrutiny. I love my middle-aged invisibility cloak and feel so much less vulnerable these days.

It was a shocker to realise that the way I feel now is how most men feel their entire lives.

Erm..no Pizan - I referenced having my bum pinched years and years ago. As a young, and v pretty, waiter on tables. No cat calling involved.
Fixing the problem? I do quite a bit , effectively, professionally, social in RL as , what I think, as a role model quite expansively. I oversee an open-ended group for young male offenders, often with messed up ideas of sex and DV.

But mostly, tbh is my experience as a father to a daughter - who remains fairly healthy in her attitudes and self valuing as a young woman.

Not that I am accountable to you, but there we go.

It's really not that simple though, is it? If people feel humiliated and victimised, it's not always possible to rationalise your way out of it. You could say that about a lot of things, it's not massively helpful.

Quite easily Pizan, because it is.

No.

Speak

So now we are talking specifically children, and not women?