Cat calling

It's one of the educative bits about being with a woman friend/partner.

I can tell you, that when I have spoken to my wife about some of the stuff I read on here, she looks at me like I'm a fucking idiot.

libprog. Yes, i'm sure that had a lasting effect. And gives you and understanding.

For what it's worth, there are loads of men posting here, and they all seem to get it. Whether they have just given it some thought, or had a bad experience themselves, they do seem to understand.

That's all we ask. Spread the word

Lib

Sorry that you had a bad experience on a train.

Assume you see that sitting near or next to.a woman on a near empty train, especially if other seats in the carriage are free, is quite likely to make her nervous and hope you take this into account.

grow. The contradictory nature that you are perceiving in women on the one hand trying to keep themselves safe, but on the other hand saying it makes no difference, is partly based on statistics. It gets heated because it's very tempting to think that women can be responsible for avoiding their own sexual assault, if only they didn't do this, that and the other. Unfortunately, as has already been mentioned, you are in far more danger with someone you know.

Focussing on it being women's responsibility to avoid danger, puts the responsibility squarely back onto women, which is patently nonsense. It is addressing the wrong side of the equation.

We are fully aware that some men rape, so we are on the alert. It doesn't stop it. And there you have the paradox.

Cat calling escalates very quickly into abuse. That is why there are a few differences of opinion. As long as you shut up and take it, you're fine. Try and retaliate and you can put yourself in danger.

Datun Yes I am. And yes, because it's not even that I am weak or anything, I am 6ft and intermittently work out. But I once had a bad experience on a train as a teenager, and since then I almost never lose that wary feeling on empty trains at night.

Dervel

I think i mentioned before that you are the most condescending poster.

I am suggesting that as a man I have a very limited influence over other men. I am not able to influence their behaviour just because I happen to be a man. By the same token, neither am I somehow partly responsible for the behaviour of other men. This is the position I have taken, or tried to take throughout this thread.

You apologised on my behalf. Not because YOU couldn't convince me to be nice, but "on my behalf" i.e. as a representative of me. Your attempts to suggest otherwise indicate that you seem unable to understand what "on behalf of" means.

You therefore, in an attempt to make me look like I needed to be apologised for, did the very thing I was arguing against you needing to.

So you see that the irony is that IMO you make my point rather than undermine it, you are indeed neither responsible for me nor able to speak on my behalf. This i believe is the opposite of the outcome you intended, and so fits with a definition of irony I believe is widely used.

I hope that helps.

libprog. Are you a man ? If so, then yes you get it.

grow. When I said I was bloody annoyed, interestingly and confusingly it wasn't because I was being forced to avoid the threat of male behaviour, that had been ingrained in me all my life. It was the incandescent lightning bolt of sure fire knowledge that all the rest of the men, everywhere had NO idea.

Watch the TED talk that Pan mentioned. Then come back.

I guess "isn't it a pain in the ass, don'tcha think?" Wouldn't have scanned for Alanis!

Datun

Interesting. I also prefer to sit next to a near a woman on a bus (well train here, and at least at night time).

I see frustration and I continue to fail to convince you to bring sufficient empathy to the table that might obviate that frustration. I'm clearly not eloquent or capable enough to get you to stop. Thus I'm apologising for my own failure that I am responsible for.

I'm also not entirely sure when you were grasping for concepts to throw at me irony quite means what you think it means. For a quick crash course in the concept nothing Alanis Morisette sings about in her song Ironic is actually ironic, which therefore is ironic. I hope this helps.

Fair point I may be missing certain nuances to the discussion, I'll take that accusation on the chin. However all you are doing is a variation of NAMALT. This is a ludicrously common tactic when used to silence women, hence the nausea.

If you want to engage in good faith with feminists you can take it as read they know not all men are like that and engage on the issues directly.

It's one of the educative bits about being with a woman friend/partner.

Listen, I accept that women feel threatened by men, and it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that they change their behaviour to try and make themselves safer, I would probably do the same and when i was a teen used to know something of how that feels when avoiding places I knew might not be safe to walk home through. Some women however, apparently dispute that this is the case - which ones should I "believe" ? They are expressing contradictory accounts - it can't be true that cat calling is both a compliment and intended to make a women feel good about herself, AND for it to be an thinly veiled threat intended to remind her that she is in a "mans" space, and consequently make her feel not good.

My problem is that it seems to be OK round here to say that all men are to blame for some mens behaviour. My point is that men are not somehow magically able to change the behaviour of other men, if this was the case not just sexism but ALL of humanities problems could surely be ended ? As it stands there are many men who are greatly invested in ending male violence, so saying that they are part of the problem, by dint of being men is difficult. As I said earlier if anyone wants to point me at a "class analysis" 101 perhaps an earlier thread, then I'm happy to read it.

pan

I know this sounds ridiculous, but it was a big jolt for me when I realised men didn't do it too. I know I knew it on an intellectual level, but I hadn't given it much thought. I gave myself a few minutes headspace wondering what that would be like. Walking without fear.

Then I got bloody annoyed.

There is a TED talk on this, posted some time ago on MN. An Austrailian man re exactly what Datun is taling about re every little decision has to be made and reviewed. Activites that men just don't have to do.

Dervel

The irony of you apologising on my behalf is striking. Do you think that as a man you are responsible for me somehow ? What a bizarre thing to do. Is it just me or will you now apologise for all the shitty things men do ?

You, by your own admission, did not read the entire thread. I was responding to a point that a PP made suggesting that "men" could basically change other mens opinions and attitudes if they only wanted to, and they didn't bother to because "they" benefit from not changing those opinions. A position that IMO is not borne out by any inspection of history.

Actually I implied nothing of the sort.

So you see, i did not say that you did, however you jump on to the end of a thread you admit to not reading and then tell me that my posts give you nausea because I didn't respond to a banner list of questions you pulled out.

IAmAmy

Clearly you can say whatever you want to and shouldn't for a second not say it incase you offend me. Not that I think you are remotely serious about tempering your output for fear of offending me. My opinion is that "men" do not respect and admire other men more than than they do women. As a general statement that IMO is false. If you think that me expressing that means I think that everything you posted on this thread is also BS, then I've no idea where you would get that idea from.

You're right derv.

Frankly I think Amy's commentary here is very relevant indeed. Young girls bear the brunt of the catcalling, and they are the ones who are harmed by it most.

Spreading the word and always calling it street harassment is a start.

I honestly think men in general have zero idea of what it feels like, how pervasive it is. How it accounts for the direction you take from the station, where you walk the dog, booking taxis in advance, re-thinking an outfit, sitting next to or near a woman on the bus, the discomfort when everyone else gets off the train leaving you and one man alone, parking under a street lamp, etc. We do it almost on autopilot. Every day.

Thank you Dervel.

For what it's worth I will apologise on his behalf. I find your comments insightful and they are very much welcome. I wouldn't understand the scale of the problem otherwise. I'm hearing you loud and clear.

And as if the derailment of the thread wasn't enough, a man now accuses me of being sexist in a conversation about street harassment of women and girls. Interesting how everything you've said you present as indisputable fact but show no concern for all the instances of street harassment reported or any interest in stopping it, only want to derail and argue with women. You have the luxury of sitting back and proclaiming "only some men do it, I don't so what's the problem?" Women and girls don't. When I walk down the street most men don't harass me but I'm always on edge and fearful because some do. So the men who don't can live blissfully in the knowledge they don't and pat themselves on the back whilst women and girls have to live with it day after day because of the ones who do. Then we have to temper how we talk about it because of the men who don't perpetrate it being upset at our expecting men to stop it.

Actually I implied nothing of the sort. I explicitly stated that some men say abhorrent things and some men quietly stay silent. The implication being there aren't enough men challenging it to correct the behaviour.

I find it interesting you have no rebuttal to the rest of my post, but leapt rather gleefully on a few lines (and failed to read it properly to boot!) so you could try and justify a zinger that I had implied something I hadn't just to cling to some sort of parity in our rhetoric.

You admit catcalling is a problem, but seemingly want to contribute fuck and all in roughly that order to the discussion of how to correct it, besides a lot of redundant sophistry about how a bunch of folk who DO want to see it gone are doing it wrong.

So please do enlighten us, what are the root causes of catcalling? What steps can be taken to stop it?

Don't worry I suspect you won't engage in answering these questions in any meaningful way, but grasp as some line you feel you can attack, or failing that you'll just dislike the tone of my post. It's so nauseatingly predictable some days.

grow

Obviously, confronting on unruly kids in the street is dodgy for anyone.

But having a talk in a school in PSHE on why catcalling is harassment, would get listened to more if it was a man telling the boys. The credibility of his opinion will be higher than a woman's.

It is not very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together

Argh - is meant to say it IS very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together....no need to to even live apart from them.

Scallops

You didn't say it was a valid course of action (lesbian separatism) you asked us why weren't telling women that is what they should be doing.

I didn't say you should "tell" anyone to do anything actually, I only asked why you would not let women (maybe even your friends) know that in your opinion a specific course of action is advisable, when you believe that to be the case. It is not very very easy to avoid having sexual relationships with men all together. Simple. I mean you're happy to tell me what you think I should be doing why would you not also tell a women ? You're the one making the leap that anyone who doesn't follow any advice you might give should be "blamed" if they didn't agree with you, and yet I'm the one who twists things.

Dervel
Ok lookit implying women aren't doing anything about it is fallacious.

And yet implying that (all) men aren't doing anything about it and just need to get their "shit together" is not ?

We could examine the language we use when discussing women in all male groups. Would that be a good start do you think?

"We" ? I dunno what language you use in groups where you talk about women, but if you hear someone say something you don't like feel free to call them out on it. How is that going to stop men grooming young girls or shouting sexual abuse at school girls ?

Datun

I'm not really sure what a lesbian separatist is actually, I gather some sort of living apart from men is involved, but I will hold my hands up here and admit I know little other than that.

IAmAmy

Unfortunately men and boys tend to listen more to other men so men staying silent on street harassment and misogyny in general further enforces the views of those who perpetrate it that it's acceptable.

Now you see - I don't think this is true. If I go up to a group of local youths up to no good, and ask them whether they wouldn't mind refraining from their current endeavours, and my wife does the same, my opinion is that they will listen to neither of us, although they have more chance of listening to a women as they have more respect for her actually than they do for me. I can tell you that only one of us it going to get a smack in the face, and it isn't her. This idea you have that men can influence other men for no other reason than that they are men actually just shows that you are somewhat sexist and expect that "men" are sexist as well. It's part of a desire to blame all men for some men being arseholes.

It's incredible that a thread on street harassment, faced regularly by women and girls and perpetrated by men, has been turned into "not all men" (actually it probably isn't). The men who don't harass women should challenge the ones who do and challenge a culture which presents women and girls as nothing but sexual objects who exist for men to judge and use. That would probably be more constructive than arguing with women and girls who live in this society and diverting a thread about our experiences. Unfortunately men and boys tend to listen more to other men so men staying silent on street harassment and misogyny in general further enforces the views of those who perpetrate it that it's acceptable.

Ok lookit implying women aren't doing anything about it is fallacious. They have named something they don't like and put it in the public space for discussion. However there comes a point when they knock the ball over to our side of the court. At the moment you're just kind of watching the ball sail over your head hit the ground and are staring blankly at it and declaring it's not your problem. If you don't want to play feminist tennis then fine get off the court (the boards).

If you don't catcall women it's a matter of astounding obviousness it's not your fault. However saying it out loud makes the discussion about you. Which is why people get frustrated with you. What can we do as men to correct this? We could examine the language we use when discussing women in all male groups. Would that be a good start do you think?

Cos those attitudes when taken out into the wild so to speak WILL cause women to be objectified and and treated poorly. Even if we're not the precise men that do it. I'm also not accusing you of actively colluding in this, but letting it get said unchallenged certainly doesn't stop it either.

An axiom I hold to is that no one can be free until we are all liberated. I just want you consider a world where the maximum number of people achieve their potential. Just take a moment to think where the human race could go we're that the case. Feminism isn't the be all and end all, but it's one of the biggest cogs that keeps getting stuck. Considering women are half the population it's the biggest single change we could make that could make the biggest difference to the whole running more smoothly.