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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

268 replies

shinynewusername · 11/11/2016 07:49

1st thread here

MN has invited Paris Lee to speak at its Blogging event.

Meanwhile, actual women are being silenced.

OP posts:
Xenophile · 11/11/2016 13:25

Difference between JL and PL is more than merely chromosomal. JL is speaking from a position of having lived through their wave choosey choice feminism, whereas the other example is speaking as someone who has never made any attempt to conceal their contempt for women.

Also Justine is agreeing with a man who has posted a seemingly never ending series of grim posts about his views about women.

It would be easy to suggest these things might be linked.

GinAndTunic · 11/11/2016 13:20

I'm not sure there would be quite the same backlash if Joanna Lumley were coming to Blogfest.

That is because JL is female and PL is [fill in the blank].

QueenMortificado · 11/11/2016 13:19

.

KnittingPearl · 11/11/2016 13:17

Quoting Justine agreeing with growapear at the end of the last thread:

I'm not sure there would be quite the same backlash if Joanna Lumley were coming to Blogfest. Might be wrong though.

The difference between Joanna Lumley and PL is that JL hasn't consistently shown contempt for and hatred of women as a class. I disagree with JL on catcalling, but I disagree with PL on pretty much everything that comes out of PL's mouth. And the snide little remark at the end, just again accuses us of being transphobic. Does it count as a PA if it is aimed at everyone on the thread, or is that scattergun-like approach allowed?

Hairy, excellent poem!

GinAndTunic · 11/11/2016 13:14

I love you, Hairy. Marry me and have my children. Grin

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 11/11/2016 13:13

There's a pretty massive and key difference between what Paris and Joanna Lumley have said about harassment.
Joanna is talking about wolf whistling. If I am recalling the article correctly, Paris talks about enjoying being groped.

AltheaThoon · 11/11/2016 13:07

Agreed selkie, I think it matters too. Not all women think the same way, we don't have a hive mind. Some women do like being wolf whistled and take it as a compliment. They are entitled to that opinion. I would guess, though, that the reason they like it is because they've been socialised to accept it. They're victims of a misogynistic society. PL has not been socialised that way because they were brought up as a boy. They really have no right how to tell women to be women and have no right calling themselves a feminist.

Justine says ' Paris Lees has on occasion said some dodgy things'. Dodgy things? Dodgy ? Ffs.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 11/11/2016 13:06

Countess

"But I think this is precisely why Paris Lees was a really awful choice - the fact that you have picked Paris as a speaker makes it harder for us all to do that."

I agree, Roy Chubby Brown would have been a better choice than this. At least everyone knows what they are dealing with

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 13:03

The comparison was made by a mansplaining man. Quelle surprise.

FreshwaterSelkie · 11/11/2016 12:57

A comparison was made on the previous thread that Joanna Lumley feels a similar way to Paris Lees about street harrassment, and would people be up in arms in the same way if JL was speaking at blogfest?

No, is the short answer. The long answer is that JL is a woman, so while she may well say some of the same things that a misogynist might say, she's still a woman speaking from a woman's perspective. I think that matters. Also, I don't recall her writing articles about how hot it is to fuck people while they're crying, calling feminists TERFs and wankers, campaigning against rights for women and claiming to speak for women while doing so.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 11/11/2016 12:52

Following on from the last thread - I hope Justine is reading this one.

Justine said:
'I don't agree - i think it shows that on MN we are trying very hard to maintain a space for a civilised debate on the trans issue where people consider other human beings' feelings. I'm afraid I'm beginning to think that might be impossible, though.'

I get that, Justine. But I think this is precisely why Paris Lees was a really awful choice - the fact that you have picked Paris as a speaker makes it harder for us all to do that.
Some of the transactivists maintain a generally civilised discourse. (Jane Fae was one I mentioned before - I don't just mean people like Miranda who are coming at it from the same direction as most of us here). But others, like Paris, basically take the approach that any level of abuse and dehumanising is fine against the enemy.
The whole Julie Bindel genitalia thing Paris did is an example.
If you want discourse on trans stuff to be civilised (and yes a lot of us REALLY REALLY want that too) you need to be careful not to give a platform to the people who escalate the aggression and that is basically one of Paris's main approaches.
I don't like being one of the people who tell you what you should do with your own website but I do think you have a responsibility here that was not fulfilled when you invited Paris to Blogfest.

AltheaThoon · 11/11/2016 12:52

Great poetry skills Hairy!

HumphreyCobblers · 11/11/2016 12:50

Just signing into new thread to show my support.

Excellent posts above everyone. Thanks.

NNChangeAgain · 11/11/2016 12:46

not nearly analogous to Trump and his extremely frequent and undeniable racism

You do realise that is entirely subjective, don't you, justine? I don't have a problem with you applying your own values to moderation of your own site, but at least be honest about it, rather than try and justify it using reasoning that you can drive a bus through!

Mozfan1 · 11/11/2016 12:46

If you haven't seen yet, justine is back on the other thread

venusinscorpio · 11/11/2016 12:45

Brilliant, Hairy!

Cocolepew · 11/11/2016 12:44

I've been lurking and just want to say I hope RL sorts itself out River Tam, I've enjoyed your posts.

I skimmed through PL Facebook page. If they were made of chocolate they would eat themselves. And yes to the porn star cliche.

ChocChocPorridge · 11/11/2016 12:41

Round of applause for Hairy! That was awesome :)

Of course, if money is the issue here (which of course it is) then the first thing we can all do is vote with our purses (or wallets) and not buy Dove (or whichever replacement sponsor's) stuff - although that's a bit tough when that sponsor is Unilever I admit!

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 11/11/2016 12:37

Thanks for reposting that shiny. Such an eloquent piece of writing. Bravo talking. More please.

Hairy That's excellent! More from you too please

So many clever, brilliant posters on this thread

FirstShinyRobe · 11/11/2016 12:26

I'm just going to re-post this amazing contribution from TalkingintheDark on every trans thread from now on.

"Sporadicus yes, it does come down to who decides what is acceptable to say.

Who is entitled/qualified to define the meaning of the word "woman"?

When I first discovered the trans threads, I was initially baffled by how anyone could even be suggesting that transwomen are actually women, when the biological truth that they're not is so patently obvious.

It took me a while to realise that the argument hinges on the TRAs having assumed the right to redefine the meaning of the word woman. They have decided that woman no longer means adult human female, but "anyone who identifies as a woman, who 'feels like' a woman inside."

Leaving aside the obvious problem that there is actually no definition of what a woman actually is in the TRAs' versions, this is the battle ground now. TRAs maintain that the essence of womanhood is a real thing, regardless of male biology. And in that belief system it is hateful to say TW aren't women.

We have not given our consent to this new definition. We weren't even asked our opinion. Our experience of living as women under a patriarchal, oppressive system for generation upon generation, our experience of battling sexism, being feminists, fighting for equality and safety - it all counts for precisely nothing in the face of the TRAs' assertion that being a woman is a feeling.

So by whose authority did they twist language to make it suit their agenda? Why did they feel entitled to do so, without so much as a by your leave? What makes them think that as people born male (and no, not fucking assigned male at birth, BORN biologically, reproductively male) they are not only qualified but MORE qualified than us to say what it is to be a woman?

Not by my authority, that's for sure. I see this as just another marker on the continuum of male violence against women, where male people take what they want from female people regardless of whether the female people consent or not, because they can. Because even MtTs, far from being the most oppressed group on the planet, are still infinitely more powerful than women.

MNHQ, if there were a group of MRAs campaigning to have DV decriminalised, I doubt very much you would give them any kind of platform, much less a chairing role on the subject of being a force for good. But this bigotry and misogyny goes unchallenged and is even feted and held up as an inspiration - even though it is every bit as malign and dangerous as the "hypothetical" group of MRAs.

Men have been taking what they want from women without our consent since time immemorial. Now, under the guise of "equality" they want to take our very identities and access to all our safe spaces and services and awards that have been created by feminism, by the struggles of WOMEN, as compensation for our inferior status in society. They are even claiming ownership of feminism now!!! And yet we are being cast as the bigots for resisting them; prevented in very many ways from even speaking and being heard.

By whose authority, MNHQ? Yours, now, apparently."

VincentVL · 11/11/2016 12:25

*Gender is now just a choice
Women have got a new voice
And this one’s a keeper
A whole octave deeper
(On account of it comes out the boys)

So shut up and listen, and learn
This helpful advice to not spurn
This person who hates you
Will now educate you
On why sex is not your concern *

FreshwaterSelkie · 11/11/2016 12:24

Well rhymed, Hairy!

HairyLittlePoet · 11/11/2016 12:15

Blogfest in twenty sixteen
Curated by lovely Justine
Gives us insight
On women who write
(From those who were born with a peen)

“How to get women’s voice heard”
Y chromosomes are preferred
A woman with balls
Who loves the catcalls
Can be a misogynist turd

Gender is now just a choice
Women have got a new voice
And this one’s a keeper
A whole octave deeper
(On account of it comes out the boys)

So shut up and listen, and learn
This helpful advice to not spurn
This person who hates you
Will now educate you
On why sex is not your concern

Start up a lovely petition
Give women a redefinition
And one of the guys
With a seven inch surprise
Gets transferred to Eastwood Park Prison

I’m sure that the inmates weren’t sick
Banged up with a violent dick
Hurrah for campaigns
With such ill-gotten gains
You too could campaign like a prick!

Dear Justine, you’ve plain lost the plot
A terrible choice for that spot
Hear our dissent
PL represents
Everything women are not

FRETGNIKCUF · 11/11/2016 12:09

It's no coincidence that uber platformed Paris Sleaze represents what they think is a male fantasy of a woman. Not many straight men fantasise about a trasnwoman however She is a walking porn star cliche and really has little understanding about how to be a real woman, just what the wank mags think women should be.

CaesiumTime · 11/11/2016 12:06

I have a vagina.

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