Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

Plus I think Justine is hitting the wrong zeitgeist.

Many more people are waking up to the damage that this latest aspect of the ideology is creating. The judge recently calling it 'cult like', The MSM outrage over the CBBC programme, even Trump's good-ole-boys election. Hell, even the huns on netmums are 'nah, if it's got a dick, it's a bloke'.

Mumsnet has brilliantly and painstakingly provided all the arguments, stats and science to counter the basis of the ideology. And it's spreading outwards. Any number of posters on here have said they have had their eyes opened.

Lees herself has been the tipping point for lots of posters on these two threads.

Ah thanks Yonic.

Good ole policywonk. I'd vote for her all day every day. If I could.

Pan

rowan is now chairing

NN

I understand what you're saying. But to have chosen Lees over any other transwoman is the bit I'm struggling with, even for reasons of the bottom line. If Justine wanted to platform a transwoman, to show she was balanced about the ideology, that would be one thing. But choosing a transwoman who does absolutely zero favours to the ideology, is something I think has the element of a mistake about it.

It would be a very impressive Machiavellian move, if she had chosen Lees on the basis of 'enough rope'. But the likelihood is, she didn't quite realise the extent of Lees opinions, otherwise why choose HER ?

I've read all of the OMgs and WTFs? and Justine's explanations as to why PL is a Blogfest Chair.

I've never heard of PL til yesterday. I can see how Justine is wishing to be inclusive and that PL will chair a session and that limits things to a degree (re the function of a chair rather than as contributor) but I'm still clueless as to what Justine sees will be any benefit. At all. Apart from a doffed cap in the on-line world to show how inclusive MN can be. But that can be achieved through less damaging means, esp with so many talented and track-record people available.

IMO Justine wants anything remotely trans critical off MN or least to be seen to be wanting that. I'm not remotely confused about why this is happening, it's crystal clear. Justine has a different opinion that's all except she gets to use the huge website she created to enforce hers.

datun what makes you think there is a problem, though? A few of the more troublesome members of the forum justine runs as part of their business disagree with a decision she has made - it's not going to make any difference to the bottom line.

Personally, I would have had far more respect for justine if she'd stood by the decision in the face of disagreement rather than try to persuade and justify it to members - but the bottom line is, MN Directors (and I have no doubt it is an issue at Director level now) have made a decision, and we can like it or lump it.

We are still a minority voice, and while MN has tolerated more than many MSM outlets - being shut down here has always been just an inevitable matter of time.

I think I'm just gonna keep c&ping this (thanks Vincent)

Why has Justine literally given no examples of how PL has been involved in blogging for good despite being asked over and over? What relevance does Paris Lees to this topic and what do they bring to the panel??

I don't get Justine now either. These threads have provided overwhelming justification for her to say 'Lees, we have a problem.'

I thought uninviting her might have been a problem to start with, but there is ample justification now.

I think part of the difference with jl vs pl is in what happens when you challenge the view. I suspect if you said to both "most women find cat calling degrading" the responses would be something like:

JL "I'm aware that liking cat calling isn't a universal view but personally I don't mind"
PL "how dare you tell me how women feel, you bigoted terf"

Lees actively campaigns AGAINST women. Her actual words endorse female harassment. Because, she personally, revels in it.

It's madness to NOT find her words repugnant.

And previous posters are right, if she wasn't using the 'protected characteristic' of 'trans' she would be nowhere.

This feels like a betrayal because it is one. JL and PL are in no way equivalent as has been pointed out very eloquently here. I notice Justine has still avoided all the difficult questions. Is this thread being kept off trending?

I looked at their fb page too and see they've been given an honourary doctorate from the University of Brighton

Paris Lees has very little of relevance to offer here. It's terribly "cynical" of me no doubt, but I don't believe that was why Paris was asked. We can have it rammed down our throats yet again that Paris is a womanly woman blogging about women's things. No other opinion is acceptable.

But the panel isnt on PL's views on women or on transgender stuff - its about using blogging to campaign for good! In that context, the event isnt the place to focus on Lee's views on women. Why cant the women who go just be able to listen to some other women talking about blogging and campaigning for good causes? What does PL have to offer here? A male person's view on their experience of being a male with male privilege fully attached 'campaigning' for themselves and other male's to have more of a voice in the media, while simultaneously ' campaigning' for women to be no platformed, shunned, and otherwise shut up?

Why has Justine literally given no examples of how PL has been involved in blogging for good despite being asked over and over? What relevance does Paris Lees to this topic and what do they bring to the panel??

Paris's FB is a ton of filtered selfies and people liking them and blowing smoke up his arse. That's it really.

I just checked out PLs Facebook too. Paris is an idiot. Wow, Paris made a video for wrangler abput how there is more to women than their arises. Groundbreaking! Paris told a white professor on TV he was mansplaining. Go Paris! All us women need to do is stand up for ourselves! We need you to show us the way!
There is a real air of condescension to women on that page.
Oh BTW I also read her sex article and I think most women like being fingered. It's part of the fun of having a vagina Paris

Is anyone vaguely hoping MN are thinking if you give someone enough rope..?
Just thinking back to a holocaust denier being invited to speak at Oxford University debating society... "The Oxford Union is famous for is commitment to free speech and although I do think these people have awful and abhorrent views I do think Oxford students are intelligent enough to challenge and ridicule them"

Justine please refrain from the snide suggestions that the only reason we're pissed off about PL being invited to attend is because they're trans. You've been given names of other trans people who would be more suitable. This has got nothing to do with PL being trans. Please tell us how they've campaigned for good. Please. We'd love to know

It would be easy to suggest these things might be linked.

I may be wrong, but it appeared that justine was desperately clutching at the first straw that was proffered to try and get out of the predicament she finds herself in.

I learnt, from MN ironically, that when DCs are argumentative and non-compliant, you should never provide an explaination as to why you have made a particular decision. I learnt a similar lesson in leadership development - sometimes, an unpopular decision should be presented without explanation in order to avoid challenge and debate which ultimately destabilises the hierarchy.

MN is not a democracy. We can, if we want to, vote with our keyboards, log out or cancel our membership.

justine does not need the agreement or consensus of site members. It is worth considering what her motive is for seeking it.

JL speaks as an adult female, PL speaks as an adult male. These facts are are material in understanding the context in which each individual's statement is made. Branding as 'transphobic' disagreement with the words of a male who is in effect positioning themselves to be speaking as female fundamentally undermines the ability of women to use the language to describe their own oppression in a patriarchal system.

Let us now be clear; this itself is an actual oppression of females by males.

JL is not a member of the sex that does the harassing.
Having a member of the harassing sex tell us how to feel about the harassment their sex doles out grates more, unsurprisingly.

Hmm, also JL, while I don't agree with her views on catcalling, they don't form her entire view of women. The same cannot be said about the other person.

I would also like to know now what Joanna says about the women who don't like being harassed, and whether it is comparable to what Paris says. I very much doubt it is.

Honestly though if Justine is going to take Growapear at his word about stuff we might as well give up.

Ironically, Joanna lumley does actually have some real experience of running a successful campaign that helped people other than herself, unlike PL