Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

Financial times caesium.

What? Where did she say those things?

There's been plenty of opportunities for MNHQ demonstrate that whilst they must make concessions to the trans cause they 'get it'. Inviting Miranda instead of PL would have discharged their apparent need to demonstrate they are not transphobic.
Certain admins have hinted as opaquely as is possible that they are treading a fine line but understand our issues and empathise.
Not Justine though. She's way off with this and has chosen her political position.
She also has form for taking a dodgy anti-woman stance:

"As far as I have seen, then, the gender pay gap has very little to do with discriminatory practices or policies against women."

"The second big problem is that women just do not seem to care as much as men do about salaries and promotion."

I thought Justine's comment re Paris Lees, Joanna Lumley, Donald Trump etc., were either misguided or disingenuous.

Paris Lees is more like Donald Trump in the volume and nature of PL's misogynist remarks, than JL.

And yeah, she's threatening us that if we don't toe the line, she'll ban talk of trans issues from MN.

Datun I feel similar, I think although am in the middle of a busy home evening so still mulling over things.

I, like others, have had my eyes opened here on MN re trans issues. I had very different views prior to reading threads here on MN and I have pointed others in my personal life to threads here, some of whom have positions of some consequence in public arenas.

In spite of all the negativity that gets through and the circular censoring or whatever it is called, enough positive and constructive narrative gets through so that folks like me can have their opinions completely changed.

To be honest I felt her pain. It is an immensely emotive issue. One can't help feeling that if anyone just spent 5 minutes googling they'd totally get it. However, I'm willing to accept, that I might be wrong, however much it kills me.

I think there's a generally accepted definition of transphobia, - intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

Prejudice is defined as 'a preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience'.

After 1000 posts pointing out the reason and personal experience, I have concluded that prejudice played no part in that version of 'transphobia'.

Having said that, I can see that Justine and the team feel beleaguered by the entire issue and given that generally they do a bang up job on this site, out of respect I'm bowing out of the discussion.

The disablism issue is about lack of moderation, this is about the reverse.

Exactly.

Posting to add my support - PL has a misogynist's view of women and women's rights (is that allowed?)

Any success PL has in PL's campaigning comes at the expense of women.

I think tbh they are getting a hard time being told MN is racist/disabilist/sexist/trans phobic and everything else so I can see why she felt the need to post it.
I think an update to talk guidelines might help. There are a lot of goaders about.

Why did she bring up that disabilist stuff? Cheap fucking shot

I agree. She's just tried to cobble it all into one post. But that's not the issue here. The disablism issue is about lack of moderation, this is about the reverse.

Doesnt make sense in context if these threads, noone here has been asking for more moderation, quite the opposite, women on these threads have been asking to be allowed to speak using standard English about a topic with very serious implications to our rights and lives.

Additionally, the criticisms aimed at Justine have been about the decision to invite Paris Lees to speak on 'blogging for good', and her own dismissive comments and insinuations that everyone who is upset by that decision is transphobic. Her comments didnt come across as serious mod comments, they were flippant and rude.

Yeah I just commented now.

Yep. Hilarious that half the people condemning the aggression and kissing her bum are people who I see regularly on threads being rude and nasty.

Justine has posted in Site Stuff about moderation policy.

Do you know what

Mumsnet can invite who they like

But i am annoyed as are other posters at the insinuation that anyone who is unhappy at PL being invited is only saying it because PL is trans

Fucking rude

And i really wasnt joking...i have no idea what consitutes a personal attack anymore

To add - My feelings are also really hurt by the idea that only men can define what a woman is. Because men are allowed to say they are women and Im not allowed to say that they are not.

the rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual assault is at least three times higher for women

What is nonsense. And if that was the case why Are you campaigning for her to go there?

OT a tad but I feel I need to query this statement - "the rate of inmate-on-inmate sexual assault is at least three times higher for women than men in America"

Surely that's because a large chunk of the time male on male sexual assault in prison will actually be classed as rape, whereas there is no rape for women?

Say... (made up stats!)
m-m sexual abuse = 15% of reports
m-m rape = 50% of reports

f-f sexual abuse = 30% of reports
f-f rape = 0 (what with the usual lack of penises in female inmates...)

So more "sexual abuse" that is f-f but far more sexual violence in m-m.

My feelings are really hurt by the idea that a man can get surgery to create a hole in himself and then decribe himself as a woman and the hole as a vagina. I find that incredibly dehumanising. Do my feelings matter or do I lack the correct chromosomes for that?

"Is there a veiled threat in Justine's comment that she thinks a civilised conversation on this topic may be impossible?"

IMO, yes.

Cross posted with captain

That's how I read it, JustWoman.

I don't agree - i think it shows that on MN we are trying very hard to maintain a space for a civilised debate on the trans issue where people consider other human beings' feelings. I'm afraid I'm beginning to think that might be impossible, though.

Just catching up on the threads, and read this from the end of the other one, please tell me I've read it wrong and it isn't saying that if we can't be civil and don't put feelings of others ahead of our own then trans issues discussion won't be allowed on MN anymore?