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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2

268 replies

shinynewusername · 11/11/2016 07:49

1st thread here

MN has invited Paris Lee to speak at its Blogging event.

Meanwhile, actual women are being silenced.

OP posts:
Twogoats · 12/11/2016 18:49

Any update on what Paris said?

fooolofbeans · 12/11/2016 18:49

Hello all, apologies - I haven't RTFT yet, but am popping in to ask if someone could link to some of PLs articles that they found offensive. I'm massively not up to speed re this argument but keen to inform myself. TIA

AskBasil · 12/11/2016 18:37

Someone on a FB group I'm on has pointed out that MN would never invite Katie Hopkins on Blogfest as she's an awful misogynist.

Maybe next year.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 15:33

curiouser and curiouser.

I saw on the twits that PL said something about 'if you dont ask you dont get'. I thought that was interesting because in my experience that is a bit of advice usually reserved for boys, thats part of childhood gender socialisation that feeds into the wage gap etc later.

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 15:22

I think someone said they emailed Shami Chakrabarti a link to this thread. No idea if it was true or not, but it does seem quite interesting!

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 15:21

Vincent here's the original line up

Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2
Twogoats · 12/11/2016 15:19

It's sponsored by Dove?!?

You really couldn't make this up!

CaesiumTime · 12/11/2016 15:18

It looks like Shami Chakrabarti isn't there. Whatever her reasons for not being there, it makes me happy as SC being on a panel with PL confers some legitimacy of some sort to PL that I just can't bear. If that makes sense.

SoHairyAndForeverSpartacus · 12/11/2016 15:16

Is Shami Chakrabarti not there?

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 15:13

The blogfest programme gives:
Speakers: Rowan Davies (chair), Paris Lees, Shami Chakrabarti, Ruth Hunt (Stonewall), Sara Khan (Inspire), Alison Bloomer (Complicated Gorgeousness)

So Shami Chakrabarti has been lost.
What was the original lineup?

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 15:09

Just took that pic from someones twitter, had the line up changed even more?

Paris Lee talking at MN - thread 2
Wolpertinger · 12/11/2016 14:46

Session is about to start - interesting to see what the tweets are about it.

Twogoats · 12/11/2016 14:07

Isn't this today? Any updates on it?

BeyondReasonablyDoubts · 12/11/2016 12:36

Good idea althea

AltheaThoon · 12/11/2016 12:35

(that's in response to Justine's definition of transphobia on the thread in site stuff but I'm keeping the discussion here to avoid the cries of 'not another trans thread')

AltheaThoon · 12/11/2016 12:31

It's not transphobic to point out that PL has been vile and misogynistic in the past.

It's almost like 'say something unkind about a trans person = transphobic'. Trans people are more than trans. They're individuals. Some are nice some are not. PL - although I don't know them on a personal level - doesn't come across as nice. I dislike PL because of their attitude, not because they're trans.

OlennasWimple · 12/11/2016 12:10

Yy to the Julie Burchill comparison (I've never much liked her writing either, but I can see it's merits. See also Tracey Emin's art)

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 11:49

well great minds and all that Grin

Burchill is massively undervalued as a writer imo. She is so sharp. I think this is like the journalist equivalent of when a woman eloquently puts forward an idea and is mostly ignored or eyerolled then a dude offers the same idea sort of scrambled up and somewhat missing the point and the men in the room give him an award for his brilliance.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 12/11/2016 11:18

To me Paris Lees style just seems like a not-so-smart and lacking-authenticity Julie Burchill rip-off

I've said that several times ! It's ironic given how frequently Burchill gets lumped in and criticised as one of the old guard

Albadross · 12/11/2016 10:53

I posted this on the thread in Site Stuff:

I've followed all the trans threads and never commented. From all I've read it appears like someone who has used words like 'wanker' to refer to others who have genuine questions is then being afforded air time despite this, when - perhaps understandably - people see this as a bit of a double standard. In some ways if we are to tolerate that person's misogyny and offensive remarks, they should also tolerate the anger that then stirs up. Not that it should be tit for tat, but stones and glasshouses come to mind and as women we're all told to shut up almost every day as it is.

I'm a mental health blogger who experiences some absolutely horrific abuse online, and where I feel it has a basis of logic or raises a question I think might be of some value I engage. A lot of what I'm subjected to is misogyny, extremely personal and even some threats of violence, and none of it with any provocation. I show I won't tolerate it by addressing it so others can see. I would've said anything I'd say here both in my blog and in person to whomever I was talking about - it's sort of a rule I have - but it does concern me that tolerance doesn't always nurture debate, sometimes it just keeps others 'in their place' so to speak. You do have to separate the person from their words and acknowledge that if something that seems offensive is not simply being used to inflame, but because it's symptomatic of an argument or core belief, then perhaps it should play out.

For me the difference between PAs on MNHQ/other MNers and a guest like Paris is that we sort of know what sort of a character Paris is from the mass of published material we can easily find. I know nothing of the mods or other posters here in comparison, so I wouldn't have any reason to PA them - I would however point out flaws in things they said as I saw them. I don't resort to name-calling because it would feel like I was admitting to being wrong (blame the ASD).

Justine's point about the 'AI' of SM influencing things like the US election is extremely key here too - and by that I mean that the more we 'tolerate' what can be harmful words or ideas (esp. if harmful to the parents MN is supposed to be supporting, or making their lives easier), the more those harmful words begin to infiltrate and influence everything else we see. Things become normalised that shouldn't be.

Spartacus has been pivotal for me and I value the debate immensely; it may seem like a 'vocal minority' but many of us are actually trans-advocates and people who in life fight for the rights of those who are downtrodden.

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 10:30

To me Paris Lees style just seems like a not-so-smart and lacking-authenticity Julie Burchill rip-off.

None of Lees articles actually make an argument. They are completely riddled with fallacies. They basically go like this (the following is my paraphrasing not a quote):

Trans women should be given access to womens spaces because they might attempt suicide otherwise. Trans women should be given access to womens spaces because they are weak from hormones so no threat. If women dont let trans women into their spaces its because they are boring bigots who dont really like sex. Anyway who cares this ideology politics stuff is so boooooring just do what I say because look! I had some cool pictures of me made up to show how cool and sexxxay I am. Why would you agree with the boring bitches, have I told you about the time I fucked this stranger on the bus?

I like Julie Burchill's writing though I dont always agree with her (to say the least). Paris Lees clearly tries to emulate Burchill's style but lacks her intelligence and wit. Lee's work is incredibly juvenile, I cant imagine a woman who wrote like that getting published by the same places let alone winning awards and more platforms for their work.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 12/11/2016 10:12

thecountess

I agree with you regarding the writing

Paris certainly has a way with words and is obviously very quick witted...on paper at least as i have never seen anything in real life as it were

Datun · 12/11/2016 09:47

I just skimmed the Juliet Jacques piece that Lass mentioned (TL;DR) and which Lees dismissed as unwanted 'debate'.

There is no doubt, that for some trans people, something is indeed very miss matched. Whether it's physical or mental, who knows.

There was no misogyny there. But, at the same time, whatever 'identity' she is speaking from (and it's fairly heartfelt), I don't recognise it as 'woman'.

The new wave of trans like Juno, Lees, Jenner are easily recognised as very male in the way they talk.

I suspect people like Miranda, Helen and Juliet Jacques are the ones now being renamed by TRAs as 'Truscum'.

Does anyone know if there has been anything recent written about these clearly different types of transpeople, by a transperson?

OlennasWimple · 12/11/2016 09:25

Good luck today RowanMN - hope the discussion is productive and enlightening for Blogfest attendees

VincentVL · 12/11/2016 09:16

It is access to women's spaces.

Maybe they mean being allowed to wear skirts etc to work/school, but they could fight that alongside women and girls if they wanted to. Female people have been challenging uniform rules since forever.