Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

Oh for goodness sake, if you took gender out of it, then what? Some group members have allocated tasks in a way that person X thinks is unfair

Person X says nothing as he can get away with doing less, but acts hard done by that group is not utilising his skills outside the situation

Person X makes suggestions about where he can contribute and has an open discussion.

Surely it is possible to initiate discussion without being controlling? If your son is not willing to do that, then he should speak to teacher.

That apart, the only reason I can think of why men might struggle to know what to do/say etc with a feminist is because they don't see her as just another autonomous human being who wants to be treated as such, but somehow see it as an attack on them personally, which undermines them as men. Many men DO struggle with women who do not act subservient to them; but that is hardly the woman's fault. Society suggests we have equality but many social norms contradict that. Women have to negotiate that every day. Thus, surely decent men should also try to.

The boys have learned that the world rewards them for exploiting women. And that the women themselves will be blamed for not preventing males from exploiting them

Alternatively there is a group of 5 people one of whom is a lazy freeloader hanging on the other's tails. My own experience of being in teams and managing teams is the people playing the "girls' role" are as likely to be men as women and the same for the "boys' role".

Of course"anecdote isn't data" will be the response - unless of course anecdote,which is all that we have here, fits with the view of women as perpetually exploited victims.

The question the OP should be asking is not why the girls let this happen but why her son is tailcoating other's work.

*DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women.

My father, my husband, and my son don't have this "difficult challenge". They each of them knew exactly what it was to be a man.

What is this struggle???*

And in case you think I'm being flip. My dad was born in 1926. My mum in 1927. She didn't work after they married (she was fired as soon as she married because she was married). She was a SAHM, She was also a feminist. He loved her and lived with her happily without struggle.

Ditto my husband (married to a feminist)

Ditto my brother in law. (sister's husband - married to a feminist)

Ditto my brothers in law (husband's brothers - all married to feminists)

Ditto my 20 year old son. Who would be the quiet less contributing one in a group - not because he struggles with "feminist women" but because he is an introvert who is inclined to do what he is told. We've helped him to work on that - because we see it as his issue to deal with - not some challenge presented to him by "feminist women"

Is there a struggle I haven't heard about??

DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women.

My father, my husband, and my son don't have this "difficult challenge". They each of them knew exactly what it was to be a man.

What is this struggle???

But buckingin why is it harder for your son? Is it really easier for your daughter?

Are people really saying he should push himself forward and do the work

No we are saying he should push himself forward and OFFER/ to contribute his fair share. Just as we say the same to our daughters.

Group work is a really great opportunity for learning. OP should be focusing on what her son can learn about his working style, have him reflect on this and learn from it.

You said that this was not an assessment project. It is a teamwork project, with each member expected to contribute equally to the project.

Your DS clearly recognises that he is doing less than his fair share of the project work.

It seems that he is missing the point of the exercise. It is not about the project itself, because that is not being assessed. It is about learning how to work as part of a team. How to assess, scope and delegate. How to negotiate. How to get along effectively with your colleagues. How to garner respect.

These are valuable 'soft' skills. Learning them will make him a better employee, employer, friend and partner, and will in the long game, make his life easier and more pleasant. He is currently exchanging short-term gain for long-term pain.

i just want to say that while I agree with the Buffy/amy combo, I also want to say to the OP that I admire your tenacity in this thread - and that I as a feminist have really struggled to raise my son through those later teen years, it is really really hard when at this age they naturally want to rebel against their parents; they have had 16 years of exposure to misogyny from every social angle; they are finding out what being a man is going to be like and exploring what kind of man they are going to be. It is fucking hard.

My DS would have behaved very similarly, is my guess. But unlike yours, he wouldn't have the trusting relationship yours does with you, to tell me. So I think you are fighting a lonely struggle and it is understandable to want some other women to take some of the strain of pushing back on your son. But those other women in this instance, are girls of 16, few of whom have the courage at that age to stand up against the misogyny they have imbibed.

My DS has a DSis, his twin, and while I am proud as buggery of her feminist understanding, sense of her value as an equal person, her general all round confidence and pazzazz as a woman, I KNOW that my very very DS has struggled with the difficult challenge that grown men struggle with, of what it is to be a man around feminist women. Give your lad a lot of love and credit for talking to you about this, for owning his own shit (in all senses!) and for discussing gender like this with you. No he hasn't worked it all out yet, it'll be years before he does probably - and that will only come with the input of many many strong articulate women. The best you can hope for is that in 10 years he'll say to you, what a knob I was when I was 16, expecting girls at school to tell me what to do.

He could have said 'I can contribute to this, I'm really good at this.'

Then the girls could have said yay or nay.

They don't have to shake him down to make their project better, because he couldn't be bothered, it didn't count towards his grade blah blah.

Yeah, you should probably RTFT, Orchid.

Not RTFT so apologies if someone has already made this extremely obvious point, but if the genders in the OP were flipped the opposite way around and the boys had organised the work and not given the girls their fair share, I have no doubt at all that everyone would be saying it was a classic example of male privilege excluding women. But because it's the boys being excluded by the girls it's twisted round to become the boys' fault? Geez. Talk about double standards.

It's not the OP's son's fault at all. Are people really saying he should push himself forward and do the work even after it's been made very clear to him that his contribution isn't wanted? If he actually did that he would no doubt be accused of mansplaining.

You've never met a man who struggled to delegate?

I have.

Ain't anecdata grand?

"I may well raise it with the teachers but I don't want to be seen as telling them their job. Teachers get enough crap"

But.... It is their job. And your job. And your DH's job. And most of all, your DS's job.

Do you know whose job it isn't?

The girls in the group!

And again women/girls are blamed. The girls aren't complaining about anything. They're doing their work and learning, trying to get an education and the best grades they can.

I think it might be societal.

It's because there are some women themselves that can't let go of the sheer burden of being a woman. I know quite a few woman like this, who apparently like to be in charge but forget to delegate fairly or say, "you do this" but then do it themselves anyway and complain they had to do it. I know a lot of people like this and all of them are women. I have never met a man who has struggled

All I'm getting from this is that boys need bossy girls and men need nagging women.

I completely agree. It's great your daughter loves being the boss, something she'll thrive doing for years to come no doubt!

Actually she loves being the boss and is great at it IAMAmy :) her older brother and sister agree.

I have 2 very different older children who behaved differently in group projects which is why I think the OP should focus on what this is telling her about her son rather than the girls.

Pallisers I agree with your post but just wanted to say I hope your daughter will find she does enjoy being the boss, is great at it and will make a fantastic and popular boss one day in her career should she wish.

The girls 'bossily' organised the task and allocated responsibilities. They IMO 'let the boys get away with' doing little by not giving them more work. He was happy to let them do this as it was to his benefit.

I suspect my daughter is one of those "bossy" girls. I can tell you she doesn't think "ah let the boy do a small thing, I'm happy to do the lions share". She is pissed off quite a lot at how many in the group (often the boys but not always) just let it up to everyone else to organise/administer/check up on/submit group work. She often rants about the ones in the group who contribute the small tasks and then late or inadequately. She equally often calls them on it - usually to no avail. She doesn't step up in group projects because she likes being the boss. She does it because she she knows otherwise the group will lose valuable time because no one will organise and she needs to keep her grades up and has pride in her work.

I think these group projects are good because they teach people how to work in groups (in my childrens' middle school the projects ended with each member of the group giving one positive and one negative comment to each other member of the group).

Your son and you should focus on how he is working in the group - what are his strengths and weaknesses. Why the girls "let the boys away with it" is not your problem but he should be asking himself why he is happy to do something small for the project and doesn't want to contribute more. It might be that he is lazy and lets others do the work. Or it might he is someone who works better alone or with just one other person - all good to know for when he is working.

I think the danger is here that if the girls 'took' responsibility for allocating tasks, what you are asking OPs DS to do is take control back, or more emotively 'take over from the girls' and I'm not sure where that sits re feminism. If you take or are given responsibility, then you are also responsible for getting thinhs done, or people not getting things done. If you want the girls to have the responsibility. .but simultaneously not be responsible then its not responsibility.

It sounds more like one club is getting together and saying what goes, and sidelining others including your DS, from both organising and doing.

If its not like that, well it could be anything. We only have one source of info.

Tardigrade001 or the girls might do more because they value their education and are trying to gain as much as possible from the task. They are certainly not "to blame" for boys not doing theirs, as keeps being said.

The whole group is to blame for not dividing the tasks equally. Shouldn't a teacher check, and talk to them about it?

Often, people don't mind doing a bit more, if they get to be in charge. Power in itself can be a reward. The girls may want to do a bit more, because that way they get to control the project. It's a trade-off.