Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

*my supposed inability.

My inability to post a whole sentence? now, that exists.

I really, really don't care enough about this one to carry on setting fire to the straw (wo)men you're constructing of my inability to see bad in any women, Lass. Crack on, I'm out.

Women who are proactive are often seen as 'bossy' or a 'nightmare to work for'. I once worked where the bosses were women and they were referred to (not to their faces) as the witches coven.

Selkie had identified a class of people identified as "man child" which "we" are all supposed to have met.

I have employees, men and women, some perform excellently, some are good/average, some are problematic. I don't distinguish them on the basis of their chromosomes and assume poor performance is based on having a particular set of chromosomes.

Custardshoes have you read the thread?

The OP is challenging patriarchal behaviour.

Why should they be proactive? The project is done and they have got other work done as well.

So it's expected that the girls will b e proactive?

My DS and his friends are baffled as to why the girls don't just ask them to do more.

Bloody hell, female patriarchal mothers. We're lost & doomed. YABU

So who is to blame the girls for not asking or the boys for letting it happen?

The boys. You know that. You should be talking to your DS seriously about his laziness.

We socialise boys to accept women/girls to be their handmaidens. Then we pay the boys/men more.

I didn't say you were doing it, I said you were accusing Selkie of judging men in a way women are judged (one woman makes a mistake and she's deemed to represent all women).

There are many phrases which commonly demean women for all sorts of things. Adult women are constantly referred to as "girls" so there's probably no need for a "man-child" equivalent, women are always children.

No Amy I am doing exactly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

I'm far as I'm concerned there good workers and bad workers - some are men- some are women. It's Selkie who has determined there is special class of bad men workers.

I said nothing whatsoever about tarring other women by the behaviour of the 2 specific women I mentioned. Where did you get that from?

I asked if there is a neat little phase to encapsulate their behaviour equivalent to "man child".

Is there a neat little phrase that matches the lazy, manipulative behaviour of Ms Lazy who drags her easily influenced co- worker down?

It's funny that Lass complains that when a man does something poorly Selkie according to her sees it as being "symptomatic of male behaviour" because that's exactly how women and girls are judged by society as a whole. One woman does something wrong and it's "oh women can't...", "women are useless at..."

Selkie's description goes a bit beyond laziness, don't you think, Lass?

Ah, well, it was a longer period than usual of enjoying your posts. TTFN.

You are ignoring my point that unsatisfactory behaviour by men results in you attributing it to their being "man children".

What is the equivalent glib phrase for the 3 women situation I described?

Or would you treat them as 3 individuals? What if Ms Lazy was Mr Lazy? Would he be a man child?

How amazing that you can see not just into my workplace, but into my head, too, Lass!

Our experiences clearly differ. It would be great if you could grant me the courtesy of having correctly understood my own life experiences, and I'll do the same to you.

Well my DS sees an equal partnership at home, he knows if his dad tries to not do his share he will be vigorously challenged

That is not an equal partnership. An equal wouldn't ever try not to do something, and in an equal partnership you would not need to challenge.

nooka ... I think I'm your daughter!

On the men v. women issue, I have noticed both. In my workplace, my take on it is that 'the system' generally sees men and their work / careers as more important than those of women, and women tend to get lumped with the kinds of tasks that take a lot of work but don't really allow one to shine. Men also tend to get away with a lot more because hey, boys will be boys.

I currently work with one of the laziest people I have ever encountered and yes, she is a woman. She manipulates men (and many women) by a variety of tactics including by flirting, mothering and generally sucking up (can I say 'sucking dick?). The men in power protect her.

Thing is, I don't see this as about her as an individual. I see a bigger systemic issue where men expect this from women and reward this behaviour because it pleases them.

I am not thought of so well because I don't perform femininity at all well. Instead of playing to egos to get what I want I simply ask for it.

My conclusion is that men and women behave in particular ways because of conditioning and gender roles under a patriarchal umbrella in which such behaviour is conditioned and rewarded accordingly.

The OP asks an interesting question, I think, and this is how we stop the conditioning before it starts.

Generally speaking I think that lazy people are more common than manipulative ones. Or rather lazy behaviour is more common than manipulative behaviour. Manipulative behaviour probably stands out more though.

Anyway I'm a mother of a boy the same age as the OP and my dd is a year younger. My ds seems to enjoy group work, seeing it as an opportunity to help other people (he is currently a high achiever although that hasn't always been the case) and to reinforce his own learning. He is very extrovert and probably a bit dominant. The only issues he reports is that his friends aren't confident enough which he finds difficult to understand.

dd on the other hand really doesn't like group work. She is a perfectionist introvert and she finds it stressful when other people don't pull their weight, or when she worries that they might not pull their weight. She likes to take charge because it gives her a feeling of control although really she much prefers to work alone, even if it means much more work. She often complains about group projects when people don't deliver or when her plans are otherwise thwarted.

dh and I have tried to bring them up in the same way, but they are quite different characters and of course they both pick up on the messages the world gives them. I doubt it's a coincidence that dd is a people pleaser and ds is assertive.

I think you may find more unsatisfactory male colleagues because you are looking out for them and turning a blind eye or excusing unsatisfactory female colleagues. Poor behaviour by a male worker is symptomatic of poor behaviour by male workers as a class- a poor female worker is just that - an individual unsatisfactory worker.

In my experience lazy and unproductive workers are not divided by sex.

The laziest worker in my department at the moment is a woman. She works in a team of 3. One of them is brilliant but works part time and when she isn't there Ms Lazy drags the third Ms Average down to Ms Lazy 's level.

Is there a neat phrase the equivalent of "man-child" to describe that conduct or because they are all women it's just the dynamic of 3 individuals?

I don't think Lass hates women as such, amy. But she would like it if we were all a lot more like her, and gave up the wilder extremes of our feminism, which she doesn't find very sensible or practical.

Lass, in my working career I have met far, far more lazy manchildren than I have manipulative women. Please do feel free to tell me that is probably a result of my deep and abiding hatred for men. It won't be true, but it might cut to the chase of this debate

Lass - you really hate women don't you!

I knew as I pressed post that you would pick up on that, Lass.

It is a behaviour I have seen, as have others I have talked to, as have people on this thread. That better?

No , not really- unless you really and truly have never encountered lazy, manipulative and untrustworthy and generally poor female work colleagues also.

Would you have a special name for a particularly manipulative woman who ignored female colleague unless she wanted a favour; flirted and played up to the older men and when it didn't work made up completely unfounded allegations of sexual harassment when challenged about the poor quality of her work?

That's very interesting scary.

However, not sure how it maps here, the boy in question has said he's been given less work. I don't think that about whether or not he's an introvert or parented by a feminist, is it?

Well its the danger of any parenting actually, as its what leads to bullying, and obsession with 'being in charge'.

There are many things to sift into as a person and it should be 'what you are good at and want to be' but it too often focuses on one thin idea of power.

"One of the dangers of feminist parenting is to see dominance and leadership as the holy grail of social or work interactions." what makes you say this?

ahem that should be in assuming the least involved...

I've seen graduate assessment people say that candidates don't understand whats going on, only to quiely ask the supposed uninvolved person and get detail and strategy. (weird, as the assessors tgemelves are involved observers!)