Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

FWR is this board; it was called feminism and women's rights years ago.

So you think the way we advise our sons and daughters should be dictated by what is posted on a mumsnet board rather than what is happening to them in real life?

My 15 year old daughter often has to take the lead in group projects. She complains as often about girls who don't pull their weight as boys to be honest. And calls them on it.

So when she complains about a boy not pulling his weight should I say to her "well love, if he tried to be a leader and pull his weight many people on this website you don't give a shit about it but that I post on would say he was being domineering so you shouldn't complain"

Seriously?

FWR is this board; it was called feminism and women's rights years ago.

No I haven't in real life, but on FWR it's a point which is frequently made - boys taking over and dominating.

What is FWR?

and why is what is said on it more important that what is actually happening in real life??

But Lass, Amy and the OP are both pretty new to MN, so why argue something that they haven't said?

In general, though, criticism is so often aimed at girls or women, dissuading us from acting with authority/showing leadership skills, whilst boys are praised for them.

I have never seen criticism in real life for boys taking leadership roles

No I haven't in real life, but on FWR it's a point which is frequently made - boys taking over and dominating.

I'm just thinking of all the times I've seen criticism on FWR of men or boys taking over.

Well we are on this thread where the only criticism in the OP was at the GIRLS taking over - not the boys.

I have never seen criticism in real life for boys taking leadership roles. I also am a lawyer and have been in very senior roles in the corporate world. I'm surprised you have - do you want to give a few examples?

Lass you are clearly a very successful woman, I aspire to that for my future. However you didn't directly respond to the points I made which were that girls and women are often criticised for showing qualities boys are praised for, such as those associated with leadership and "girl" or "woman" themselves are deemed terms of insults by some.

Is that what you would accuse them of? How bizarre. Maybe it is a generational thing. My 15 year old would say "delighted to have Max and Josh pulling their weight"

No I absolutely not would accuse them of that.

I'm just thinking of all the times I've seen criticism on FWR of men or boys taking over.

Lass you seem to live in a parallel universe. Boys are always praised for being leaders, decisive, showing strength whilst girls who take charge are "bossy", "difficult", "ball breakers" and whatnot

No Amy, I'm a 57 year old woman and a partner in a large law firm.

I live in a world where as I said before I am capable of working our whether the people who work for me are doing their jobs effectively without having to define them as "man children" if they are male or making excuses for them if they are female.

*OP you seem to think every boy is like your son and all the girls are just doing the work for them. In reality I expect there are groups where the girls say (like my dd often does) "Oh I have Max and Emma and Alex and Josh in my group so it will be easy to complete". I suspect plenty of boys are contributing just fine and taking leadership roles

Except such boys would be accused of ousing their male privilege to dominate the girls.*

Is that what you would accuse them of? How bizarre. Maybe it is a generational thing. My 15 year old would say "delighted to have Max and Josh pulling their weight"

Haha, thanks Im0gen. I'm glad she's happy and successful and wish she was right. Crave a day when no women experience misogyny but that's quite a long way off sadly!

Lass DOES live in a parallel universe . She is the only woman I know doing her job in her city who believes that there is no discrination in her profession. Including the leader of the professional society .

She's the only woman of her age who didn't experience any misogyny at university . And thinks that anyone who says they did is a liar or brought it on themselves.

She's a flat earther. You won't change her mind.

OP, you might find this link interesting, after your comment on bossy girls.

banbossy.com/

Lass you seem to live in a parallel universe. Boys are always praised for being leaders, decisive, showing strength whilst girls who take charge are "bossy", "difficult", "ball breakers" and whatnot.

"Don't be such a girl", "you throw/play/whine/act like a girl" "you're like a couple of women", "you're such an old woman", etc are used all the time. There don't need to be terms like "man child" as "girl"/"woman" is deemed an insult as they are, it's embarrassing enough just to be called one.

OP you seem to think every boy is like your son and all the girls are just doing the work for them. In reality I expect there are groups where the girls say (like my dd often does) "Oh I have Max and Emma and Alex and Josh in my group so it will be easy to complete". I suspect plenty of boys are contributing just fine and taking leadership roles

Except such boys would be accused of ousing their male privilege to dominate the girls.

really, really don't care enough about this one to carry on setting fire to the straw (wo)men you're constructing of my inability to see bad in any women, Lass. Crack on, I'm out

Straw man- love it.Such an easy way to end an argument.

Still no answer as to whether there are equivalent terms for man child or man flu. I thought the view on here was gender stereotyping was bad?

My DD is in an A level class with two boys like your son ( he's not called Daniel is he ? ) and two hard working and smart boys .

The girls and decent boys all just ignore the lazy / selfish / entitled boys because they don't think it's their job to train them in team work . Like your son, these boys entertain the fantasy that they smarter than everyone else and dont need to revise.

They are looked down on by the others pupils for their immaturity and bad attitude.

The teachers notice . They are the ones who are writing university references.

Next you will be back lamenting that the boys don't get as many university places as the girls and it's discrimination.

And that's because so many women are people pleasers and raised to be from birth - as we see from the example in your OP.

My daughter is not a people pleaser. She often does end up organising group projects and doing more than her fair share of work. As I said up thread (and OP did not respond to) she does not do that to "please the boys" She often calls both boys and girls on their lack of input but realistically she has learned that if she wants to get a good grade on a project, she needs to do more than her fair share. And it isn't her job to encourage them to deliver work or offer to do more work.

Nothing to do with her being a people pleaser (as if) or not wanting to upset a boy (jesus h christ).

Everything to do with her caring about her grade, the quality of her work, her fellow hard workers not being left in any more shit than they are already.

But yes everything to do with how we raised her - to be responsible for her work and do as well as she can and contribute more than her fair share when possible.

OP you seem to think every boy is like your son and all the girls are just doing the work for them. In reality I expect there are groups where the girls say (like my dd often does) "Oh I have Max and Emma and Alex and Josh in my group so it will be easy to complete". I suspect plenty of boys are contributing just fine and taking leadership roles.

The girls are not responsible for boys - or girls not stepping up. OP for gods sake talk to your son about why is ok with this status quo. Explain to him that when he goes to work and he does similar he will be overlooked and the person who takes control and actually delivers will be recognised, no matter how smart he is. he needs to figure out his strengths, and work out how to work around his weaknesses - like everyone else in the world.

What he doesn't need is someone wondering on his behalf "why do girls let him get away with this?"

By putting the blame onto boys for girls managing badly, and requiring/expecting them to deal witg it, or be called deficient, and by taking the responsibility fir failure away from the girls (by re-labelling it failyre of the boys) ypu might think you are bullying the hateful boys and protecting the girls, but in fact you are taking away their responsibility and agency, ie. saying the boys are responsible for success, and blameworthy for failure. Which gives all the power and responsibility and accountability to the boys.

In fact most of the indignance on this thread actually is fighting within the bag of patriarchal thinking, and leaving all the agency and responsibility with the boys.

Thats not feminist at all!

I'm not sure that using terms like 'manchild' or talking about 'manflu' are particularly helpful because they do depend on gender stereotypes so much. However while I don't think I've particularly met men at work who take a lazy passive approach that I'd describe as childlike, there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot of feigned helplessness when it comes to household and childcare tasks. Far too many women who find their partners more of a burden than a helpmate.

Why, zank you, darlink

"really, really don't care enough about this one to carry on setting fire to the straw (wo)men you're constructing"

Nicely put.