Why do girls let the boys get away with it?

As I said, keep living in your bubble.

At some point you will realize it's not leading you anywhere.

I don't think you are here in good faith. Every post you make convinced me further of that.

Byeeee!

If anything, you are the troll here:

"tum ti tum"
"is that right...mmmm hmmm"

Very mature ;)

Two. Actually.

And yes, you actually think that is not how young men are won over on the internet? They are told this is what women are, they maybe even are skeptical, come on here voila what they were told was right.

Again, do you think you are helping your agenda?

Loving it. :)

How does it feel to live in a bubble perpetuating your biases?

I have been honest so far, I am not an alt-right trolling trying to stir you up, and yet that is what you, without ever engaging with me have decided I am, and started bitching at me with Amy, before ever replying to me.

So I repeat, do you think you are helping your agenda?

Is that right?

So because of a single schoolgirl on the internet, you might decide all women are feminazis?

Mmm hmm.

@YonicProbe yes I am new, but do you want to know the reason I came on here? I was having a discussion elsewhere on feminism and one alt-right guy said something like "you think we are biased and arseholes, just go on mumsnet and see how vicious and prejudiced the women there are".

And here we are, I tried to make an argument that had nothing to do with boys vs girls, to get Amy to think about this completely unbiased. I was completely ignored, in fact she seems completely incapable of looking at in objectively, and instead accused of misogyny. If I were a lesser human I would now say wow that other guy was right, women are all feminazis, better vote Trump. So well done.

Tum ti tum.

How are you enjoying MN, lib prog?

IAmAmy - and that is the problem, because you make it into a problem. You have completely ignored everything I said, didn't even try to engage with it, and again made it about "girls vs boys" and how it couldn't possibly be the girls' fault. With that kind of attitude you will always get people against you. The funny thing is that I am usually called a SJW for siding with the feminists or with the minorities, and yet you remind me exactly of why that is - I once had a female teacher that was horribly sexist, so I believe I can at least understand the position of women when it comes to being discriminated against and often tell sexists to see it from the other side. But you remind me so much not of that situation in general, but of that teacher. And I think you can imagine what I thought of her. You will not get very far if all you see is black and white.

Anyway, on a different level, you are all about equality aren't you and this is about school? So why are you not campaigning to help boys in school? It has been widely demonstrated that boys underperform in schools compared to girls, and this gender gap has been increasing over time:

www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/03/economist-explains-3

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150610093116.htm

Thank you for letting me know Yonic! I suppose suggesting challenging misogyny is provoking misogyny should have been a warning...

Amy

Libprog has joined today and posted solely on this thread, in a way that makes clear libprog is not too keen on feminists.

This sort of posting pattern isn't uncommon on this board.

It can definitely be difficult to be in a situation of having to do group work when the rest of the group are all in the same 'friendship group'. I'm lucky with my school as though there are obviously different groups, and social standing is an issue, we all tend to get on and be inclusive of one another.

In this case though it was just boys deciding it was preferable for them to not bother doing their share of the work and use the time to do other work they had.

I wonder if there's a social aspect to this, apart from who's dominating whom or who's the lazy one. Is it possible that the girls have a better bond between them, and they automatically form a team which outsiders (mere males, for instance) would feel intimidated about breaking into, as they would be seeing it? Either side could change things, with the girls inviting the boy to take some part of the project, or the boy could volunteer to do it. But (thinking back to the social world of 16 year olds, and failing) would any of them do this?

It's great if there are some schools, or some set of kids at some schools, where they're used to working together, and if anyone tends to be shy, the others include them tactfully. But maybe there are a lot of times when someone doesn't work with a group because they just don't feel like part of that group.

libprog I don't fully follow your first paragraph in that reply which seems to suggest I'm somehow fuelling misogyny by...I'm not sure what? Being a feminist? Opposing sexism? I don't think men harassing me or any other woman or girl on the street could ever be our responsibility, let alone suggesting it's provoked by challenging sexist culture.

If there's one shy person in a group then yes it'd be best if the others helped them get involved. I've been that shy person in group work in the past and the other girls in my group made sure I wasn't ignored (I used to be quite shy, not so much now). However this was about boys choosing not to do their work and being quite happy for the girls to do it all so they could get on with other work knowing the work set would still be done, not shy boys wishing they could get involved. The story about the English/Spanish translation sounds lovely though!

Sorry , Yonic , misread what you said.

Hence it makes no sense to them to be arguing against past threads.

"Re being new I've been posting since 2012."

I didn't say you were new; the OP and Amy are.

No one has said that the OPs son should take charge and push out the girls. They are suggesting that he should pull his weight as team member. That's why posters are accusing you of straw manning

Have you missed the frequent complaints on this forum about men taking over and dominating?

In this particular case the work load should be shared but it is a common complaint on here that men or boys dominate.

I have said he should work with the team. I specifically said the problem in this particular case was the boy not pulling his weight- not as the OP would have it that the girls are at fault.

If you are going to start chucking "straw man" your last post is a entire hay rick of things I never said.

Oh and I still think the "man child " comments are trite stereotyping. Useless female employees are individuals for whom excuses are made-uselesx male employees are conveniently pigeon holed by a neat, glib phrase.

IAmAmy but you see, that is exactly where you are wrong. These men that post on Breitbart, voted Trump/Brexit, think feminism means feminazi, think if a girl is drunk and doesn't say know they can fuck her, those that make sexual comments to you in the street, they are all the same person. And you are just fueling their idea of a world where (white) males have all the privilege.

"Hardly their responsibility" - forget gender/race, if you had 5 white girls or 5 black guys in one group, and 4 of them arranged everything between themselves and the fifth person is maybe a shy and didn't speak up and suddenly everything is settled, would you still say it wasn't the responsibility of the other 4 to include the 5th person. Wasn't there in the last couple of days a story about a child using her phone app to translate English to Spanish and vice versa because she realized the new kid couldn't speak English and she saw he was lonely? Should we not live in a world where that is the norm? Rather than "not my responsibility"?

libprog I'm at school now so can't reply in as much detail as I'd like but I wouldn't say that boy was necessarily sexist no. More that he was showing the traits he'd have been encouraged to by a society which praises boys for leadership and labels girls "bossy" for the same. It also ha to be seen in the context of wider culture as Im0gen put so well. Also this thread was asking why girls apparently let boys get away with doing no work even though they're the same age in the same class, hardly their responsibility to get boys to do their work.

As for "men who feel threatened by feminism", I'm more concerned with all the girls and women who feel threatened by male violence, misogynist abuse, street harassment and so on than men threatened by losing their male privilege.

or..the OP is saying her DS in the name of feminism should undermine the allocation of work by the girls, and say 'i'm better at this subject than you, let me do the work and we'll all get better grades'. Or 'here, let me do it, love you dont know what you are doing'...

or..

her DS is standing back and letting the girls fix the car even though he knows how to do it, so they can learn themselves..

or..

he is sitting back and watching the girls fail because he is lazy and condescending..

or..

the girls know that OPs DS will score all the goals if they pass him the ball, and the team will win because hes a great goal scorer but they dont want him to get the glory so they dont pass to him. wjen the team loses, they blame him for 'thinking he's so brilliant but he's not'.. but the team have lost. OPs mum says 'takle the girls and take the ball off them and score. OPs son does this and the team wins. The girls hate him more. the manager berates DS because 'he doesn't understand teamwork' DS says 'i fid what had to be dobe to get the best result for the team' DS is dropped and the tean feels better..but loses every game.

or..

DS is the expert in the team. the projevt is run by non-experts. he can expose them as non experts by giving the right answers, or doing the work himself, or make them feel better about themselves by pretending their wrong answers are right, or let them do the work and advise and guide.. but obv without being in the mansplaining, dominant, or 'MAN = RIgHT' position even though in this case man and expert are in the same body.

The question is, should he supress being 'right' in order to offset historic dominance by men two generations before him, or be treated as a genderless actor with skills in the present, and which is more feminist...

but also choose which perspective is more useful..the wholistic team perspevtive, the boy is to blame perspective, tge girl is to blame perspective, the individual that we have access to is to blame, or the group v individual perspective..

Lass - don't you think there's a third option apart from freeloading or taking charge? In any group in which you are NOT the leader, are you a free loader?

No one has said that the OPs son should take charge and push out the girls. They are suggesting that he should pull his weight as team member. That's why posters are accusing you of straw manning .

Don't you think any individual act needs to be seen in its wider social and political context ?

If an African American spits at a KKK member, is that exactly the same as a KKK member spitting at at African American?

Is a teenage boy excluding a girl from a leadership role in education exactly the same as the other way around ? Dont you think that the social structures in high school and in society might be just a tiny bit relevant ?

What is FWR?

and why is what is said on it more important that what is actually happening in real life??

This part of MN.

I don't think it is more important than what is said or happens in real life. I was being sarcastic about the type of response often made on FWR.

I frequently think this part of the forum bears little resemblance to real life. The boy here is criticised for free loading but if he took charge he'd be criticised for using his "male privilege " to dominate.

Re being new I've been posting since 2012.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist and IAmAmy - in a scenario where the boys would have taken the lead and not assigned much to the girl and the girl didn't ask for more, you would of course not in a million years dream of saying how sexist that would be, right?

You will never be a "reasonable" feminist if you don't look at things from the other side. Which you are clearly not. So it's rather ironic that you call yourself a "reasonable" feminist. Because I can tell you that the attitude you display here is nothing but cannon fodder to men who already feel threatened by feminism. "Could not be the girls' fault" - you are showing you never even considered anything else.