Assault them till they love you - in films real men don't need consent

We're men on a feminist board, my advice is take your ability to read a room and dial it up to 11. This will also be a place to vent frustration (which is a perfectly natural human response). Be a bit thick skinned and don't take class analysis of men as a personal attack.

Also pear I'm detecting an adversarial tone

Apologies for that, I feel under attack !

Also pear I'm detecting an adversarial tone, I'm not presenting my experience > your experience I'm just offering additional perspective. Take or leave it at your discretion.

Obviously there are established patterns in human interactions, but there are alternative approaches that may offer additional insights. That is all.

HTH

No, it doesn't actually. If someone with a grim view of relationships is in one and has been in several, it follows that those too would be grim thanks to the holding of said view. If i said you had a grim view of parenting would you assume I thought you a good parent ? Thought not.

Like I said I'm no expert in "picking up" women. If you put a gun to my head took me to a bar and said go get this or that specific girls number I'd fail spectacularly.

All I'm advocating is that there is a lot more complexity in human interactions than what Hollywood pumps out. Additionally and this goes for writing as well as meeting people. Subverting expectations makes a deep impression. If I strike up a conversation with some women, once they work out I'm not trying to sleep with them I'm suddenly a lot more interesting than 95% of men they meet that night simply because I'm different.

Again this isn't a method to pick up women it's a method of meeting people. Most women will be like 'cool he doesn't just want to get in my pants', and we just have a friendly chat, but I guarantee you women who may like you will make themselves known if you behave like that.

I don't doubt you know many women who would never make the first move, but why precisely should I bother with women who want to make me jump through hoops? Life will throw up enough challenges as it is. I asset that falling into this trap speaks of a lack of confidence in the first place.

I said you have a grim view of relationships.

I said nothing about your own relationships, just that your view of relationships as implied by your posts on this thread (with talk of power etc) was grim.

HTH.

"if he didn't well - she wouldn't." - So what?

So a happy relationship with someone she clearly really likes would never have taken place. Isn't that the point ? The viewers can tell they both really like each other, they are (I assume) supposed to want them to get together, they are then drawn to the bravery of James Nesbitts character who risks being rejected in order to make his feelings known. Perhaps you have no qualms about opening up to other people, or having them turn you down, and that is fine, but it is unusual.

Women are perfectly capable of pursuing men. These observations resonate with my personal experience.

Dervel - I'm not here to pick up tips on how to "get dates" thanks very much all the same. I know a lot of women who would never "chase men" - make of that what you will, they prefer men to woo them, they don't by and large try and woo men. If a man is not willing to go to enough perceived effort then they would assume he is not keen enough. I simply observe that this fits with the narrative in popular fiction (Cold Feet included). I am not saying that this is either the way it ought to be or the way it always is, but there is an element of truth to it. The reason that viewers are drawn to the character making the grand gesture is because he is risking the object of his affection turning him down, and that is seen as brave I think. I hardly see how this is controversial tbh.

"if he didn't well - she wouldn't." - So what? No one is obliged to be in a serious relationship

Exactly this.

And what Dervel said, and someone else upthread about their ex. In every relationship I've been in where one of us has had to persuade the other, it hasn't worked out.

Also. Bullshit that men always have to make the move. Women do this plenty of times, what they don't do as much is approach randoms who have given no indication that they are interested and expect it to go somewhere.

For the avoidance of doubt I'm not laying this problem at the feet of feminists or even women in general. Just my obvservations and opinions for the wider discussion. It is probably something men have to work through collectively.

It may sound counter-intuitive, but these paradigms where a man has to "put himself out there," or perform some sort hypemasculine aggressive peacocking are precisely why men struggle to get dates.

Only a tiny tiny minority of occasions do those tactics go anywhere (and ok maybe spectacularly good looking men may a bit more mileage out of them). However the men who are less successful create this observation bias in their own heads that this is the way to be and they are not that.

The common element to both groups is this entitlement to women. Where to go from here? Well I am no Harrison Ford, and neither am I some grand Cassanovian seducer of women, but I've done alright.

Just generally be friendly, sociable and kind to everyone and have confidence in yourself. That will resonate with people you are compatible with, and the business of attracting people is one fuck of a lot less effort and hassle.

The real life skills in relationships is being able to put in the work over time. Nurturing and bringing out the best in one another and standing equally to build a life with someone and not for them. Funnily enough a lot of these fundamentals translate into good parenting skills (looking at things from other people's perspectives, being able to put other people's needs before your own when require, good and honest communication). Although the parent/child relationship starts off unequal by nature, and romantic relationships should not.

There is only one thing men can do that women can't and that is to be fathers, conversely only women can be mothers. Absolutely everything else is interchangeable and up for grabs. Particularly right now in our collective cultural storytelling fatherhood is not seen as aspirational as motherhood, and seeing that it's the only thing us men have that is truly any different, it's hardly surprising there are generations of men who couldn't find their arse with an atlas when it comes to understanding their own masculinity.

Yonic

It's a bit much to say that my life thus far and familial relationships etc are "grim" because of a simple statement of fact that in the majority of portrayals (as in this one) the man is the one who does the chasing, despite the evidence that the women probably wants to be in some sort of relationship with him. Are you saying that the viewers are wrong to perceive this ?

and the next thing he did was push her into one

I rather think it's you that has the grim view of relationships. How was she pushed exactly ?

I hope you don't believe it, because it's bollocks.

"getting it thrown back in his face" - given they are friends and have already snogged, she's hardly likely to run around saying "uuurgh, Adam asked me out" like an immature teen. She might say a simple no, which is hardly the same thing.

"the woman never does" - Crap.

"she will happily keep shagging the married guy" - as noted above, she was cornered by the married guy who turned up to move in without asking. Hardly "happily shagging"

" if he didn't well - she wouldn't." - So what? No one is obliged to be in a serious relationship. After the death of her husband, she didn't want to be in another relationship as he was the love of her life. She only wanted no-strings-attached. That's completely up to her, and would be whatever the reasons for wanting to stay NSA.

She opened up to him about not wanting to be in a relationship and the next thing he did was push her into one "for her own good" - oh, and in his own self-interest, he was hardly encouraging her to make a go of it with Jamie or any other guy.

And she did say she'd like him to stay living across the hall - that's quite a big "out there" statement given he'd just bought a house for him and his son. He could easily and understandably have said 'no' to that (or thrown it back in her face, to use your parlance)

Things to do now, but sheesh, you have a grim view of relationships. I'm done.

Pear

Do you honestly believe that, or is that devil's advocacy?

Well - what I'm getting at is that she (as is typical) doesn't seem that bothered, he's the one that has to risk putting it all out there and possibly getting it thrown back in his face, because she won't, the woman never does. The impression is that he is more bothered than her, because despite clearly liking each other, without him making the effort, she will happily keep shagging the married guy. So I suppose that gives the impression of an imbalance as it's always the man who has to go overboard, if he didn't well - she wouldn't.

Interesting, watching that episode of cold feet as a man it seems like she has all the power

That is interesting - given that the only power she has is the power to say yes or no - just like him. It's a very male centric view that she has power because she can reject - not that they both have power because they can both reject

Interesting discussion. I've been wracking my brains to think of a film where the woman pursues the man and a) she isn't a bitch and b) it ends happily, and the only film I can think of is Charade with Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn. He initially rebuffs her because of the age gap. That's the only film I can think of!

Wouldn't it be good if we stopped perceiving dating as anything to do with "power"?

With obviously the opt in being contingent on the other person's wishes

"all the power"

Say what?

Both people have the "power" to opt in or out of a relationship

She would have used the word suitor which I was a bit taken a back at.

Interesting, watching that episode of cold feet as a man it seems like she has all the power. My view is tainted perhaps by an ex who advised me that the trick as a girl was to let a man know subtly or by some means at leady that you liked him, then to let him do all the running. James thingys character is in this mould, and if course he has to move fast to get in before the other guy (who has been very clearly marked out as a total bell end in juxtaposition with the good guy)

Yeah, and him essentially saying she was cheap as Mr Married had "bought" her with flowers and a song was hardly endearing.

Mind, Mr Married turning up to move in without asking was even worse!

Anither problem with this is that it tells young girls that their opinion, gut instict, is wrong and the man knows better what's good for them.

She doesn't want to, he insists against her will, oh it's wonderful, he was right, what a silly girl I was to think with my own head.

Awful. Even when it is not rape or force or violence. How many time in real life you have changed your mind about someone just because they kissed you or semi stalked you? I can remember plenty of nice guys wanting to go out with me - I just did not fancy them, thee would have been no point in giving in.

Fast forward 12 years and I have given in to my stbxh and the results are not as we both expected.

Getting together should always be mutual, and in films never is.

(For example I was a bit unconfortable in the last episode of cold feet - think it would have been better plot to wait till she was ready to start a relationship with whatsisname rather then him convincing her ay a party, but hey)