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Original poster

Has the definition of phobia changed?

65 replies

ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 11:08

Okay, I'm being a little sarcastic, but I cannot believe how easily people throw around the term phobia at the moment.

On FB I'm part of a cloth sanitary pad chat group (I realise how weird that sounds). Someone posted a link to 15 cartoons about periods "that only women will understand". The first comment is "this is transphobic". There is then a back and forth with one person accusing everyone else of transphobia. Someone has attempted to point out that it's not transphobic, however it could be argued that it has failed to take into account trans people, so admitting there's an issue, and has been told "you don't get to decide what's phobic, you're not part of the oppressed minority".

I'm pretty certain phobia has a specific meaning. And not including trans people isn't automatically transphobic. "15 things only straight women will understand" wouldn't be homophobic. It's just about straight women. It might display a lack of knowledge, but that's not the same as homophobia.

I have friends who won't identify as bisexual anymore (specifically, on the kink scene), because apparently the word bisexual is transphobic as it excludes trans people. Pansexual is what you have to be. Again, just because the word bisexual doesn't explicitly say "I'll sleep with trans people" that surely doesn't make it phobic? And since when is having sexual preference indicative of a phobia? Straight people are not homophobic because they don't want to have sex with people of the same sex. That's just their sexual preference.

I've put this in feminism chat because although asking about the meaning of a word isn't directly feminist, I am really annoyed that this has now reached the point where a support group for women asking all kinds of questions about periods, incontinence (often post childbirth) and advice for helping their teenage daughters, has suddenly become somewhere where you can be transphobic for saying that women have periods. although when I read the post I just laughed. Because, of course.

OP posts:
MrsJayy · 05/11/2016 11:04

Biological women can identify as dragons for all i care doesnt mean if they have internal organs that function means they menstruate so then identifying as genderqueer wont take away their fallopian tubes if they are offended imo that is their issue not ours woman should not stop talking about periods in case they offend some dragon identifying random.

IBelieveTheEarthIsFlat · 05/11/2016 10:58

this person identifies as gender queer (not even a transman), has periods, but is not a woman. And so is offended that "only women have periods" as they are not a woman. They do not identify as a man, male or a transman though
It's all self indulgent crap and we are 'transphobic' to call bullshit on piles of steaming narcissistic horseshit.

And, the term transphobic in most contexts is inaccurate, even by the trans descriptions because the so called 'TERFs' don't seek to exclude Transmen i.e. females from female only biology/spaces etc. Just Males. Men. Humans with Cocks. But Transmen don't count. Because they are women

And if the transman above does not identify as trans either then how the fuck can you be transphobic to her?

MrsJayy · 05/11/2016 10:41

Oh menopause phobic that could be a real thing Grin

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/11/2016 10:14

This whole thing is ridiculous. You might as well say you can't have FB groups about kids because not everyone has them, or shoes because not everyone has feet.

Besides which, by no means all women menstruate. Postmenopausal women don't, for one. Does this FB idiot claim to speak for all of them too?

MrsJayy · 05/11/2016 09:34

Phobic means irrational fear or strong dislike doesn't so no i dont think that example is phobic as only biological women have periods how can a sanitary wear joke or meme be transphobic in a group for sanitary pad users Confused.

Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 17:36

Sorry, that was pretty incoherent.

OP posts:
Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 17:36

That's interesting WankingMonkey. But why isn't the word 'man' the problem? Why can't they just be feminine men? Oh wait, that would be logical and gender critical. Why the hell do they get to even try to redefine a word that has a solid meaning to however many hundreds of millions of English language speakers? Yes, meanings change over time, but men/women? And as you pointed out FtM/MtF already uses male and female inappropriately.

I suspect though, that if they were allowed to take the word, they would want something else. As evidenced by discussion of periods/prostate cancer being transphobic. So what isn't?

OP posts:
WankingMonkey · 04/11/2016 17:19

I actually half found out what all the fuss is about a week or so ago. Apparently its the word 'woman' that is the problem...

www.reddit.com/r/GCdebatesQT/comments/57qdrb/radfems_vs_trans/d94d3nt/?context=3

But that explanation makes no sense while people are kicking off about biological functions and such.

Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 16:51

Sorry, "non-women" who do menstruate but don't want to be identified as biologically female.

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Shallishanti · 04/11/2016 16:19

agree with PP who said getting all this out into the open more will bring everyone to peak trans, which can only be a good thing- also that this really is massively a '1st world' problem and that OPs group, in looking at the issues faced by menstruating women and girls in the majority world, will see that we as a sex class are oppressed because of our sex not because of our 'gender'. Gender is just a tool for that oppression.
Years ago I read a feminist speculative fiction about a matriarchy where women were dominant, and men subordinate (because obviously anyone with vulnerable weak genitals hanging OUTSIDE their body would be subordinate) and menstruation was cause for great bragging and proof of superiority. And of course, only women bleed.

Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 16:17

sohackedoff someone suggested that and got shot down. As Venus says, it was also considered transphobic. Because there are "non-women" (for want of a better word) who do not menstruate and do not want to be identified as biologically female. And because transwomen do want to be identified as biologically female

And apparently "a large number" of not trans, but not women do menstruate. A tiny number

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Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 16:12

Sorry Venus I misunderstood! I thought you meant challenge the transgender talk directly, rather than just turning it towards a different issue. Yes, that I could do. I think there's a lot of reluctance, not just from me, to engage with transactivists as it can get nasty quickly. But I think probably I need to suck it up that I might get ripped to shreds by a few people, whilst making a bigger issue the point.

Amalfi that's really interesting! I'm glad to hear people are changing their minds. As someone who had a lot of trouble as a teen with my parents over my girlfriends, I found it really really difficult to be cast as anti trans (although at that point, not transphobic). And I am not anti transsexuals. Initially I was also pro trans. But I think that changed quickly for me as I had a fairly large amount of contact with transgender/gender queer/gender fluid people at the time, and they drove me bloody mental. They actively looked down on non-trans people, or gender conforming. But their definition of that was bloody narrow. I was gender conforming because I normally wear skirts or dresses and have long hair, that's about the only gender conforming thing I do. But it's a very looks-based assessment of sex/gender. Most of them are bi/pansexual, kinky, polyamorous, pagan (all at once). Now I also know people who are all those things without being trans, who manage not to be special snowflakes, but IME there's a big difference between the ones over about 30/35 and the ones in their early 20s, who often seem to be accruing as many non-conforming descriptors as they can . But it's been my experience.

That friend identifies as trans (for about the past 2.5 years), and having been fully onboard for longer than that is thoroughly entrenched with the ideology. We're not in contact anymore. Not because of that row, but because it became the only thing she ever talked about, ever posted about, and became very very aggressive about. It became frankly boring, and very difficult to interact with her. There was no room for anything else in her life. The tiniest hint of an alternative perspective, not even disagreeing, became a personal attack against her. Most of her one time friends have now been re-categorised as bigots. So, so hard to deal with. I don't actually know what her pronoun is now, it's changed several times. I'm not deliberately misgendering, I just don't know. It used to depend on her daily gender. She has a new, gender neutral name, as she is neither male nor female. She actually just looks like a punk when you see her. A female body, with partially shaved, partially spiky green hair, dungarees and baggy tee. In another generation she would just have been a punk.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 04/11/2016 16:10

I think the issue comes up on both grounds, that it is othering and exclusionary to transwomen and misgenders or erases transmen.

venusinscorpio · 04/11/2016 16:03

I've been told just saying "biological women" is transphobic in itself because it is "othering".

sohackedoff · 04/11/2016 15:59

Can someone clarify in relation to the period discussion, Is it transphobic to say "biologically a woman" on the basis that only biological women (and presumably that would include trans men) have periods. You might identify as a woman but that does not create a biological ability to menstruate. Or do I not understand?

venusinscorpio · 04/11/2016 15:40

No that's fair enough Imp, and I fully understand that. But I do think you (I meant people in general rather than you personally) can challenge without saying anything contentious in this case, because there isn't an issue for anyone to get excited about really. It is a women's issue because it affects billions of women worldwide. And some trans men and people who don't identify with a gender who are women

Amalfimamma · 04/11/2016 15:13

op

I would have been like your friend, super pro trans. But thanks to people like prawn venus wanking and other feminists on MN and especislly thanks to the transactivists on here I've realised that I was wrong and that the word transphobia is belted out right left and centre to create an echo chamber where the trans movement is not questioned.

Tbh, the questions put to transactivists on here have largely been ignored or the Asker been told they are a bigot or transphobic

Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 15:03

Venus I'm a teacher in a girls' school, with a surprisingly (or perhaps not) large number of trans students. I have to be really careful with what I say on social media. Bizarrely I'm able to gently challenge a bit more in the classroom, face to face, where things can be framed carefully. But typing it on FB - that way disciplinary action lies...

OP posts:
Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 14:51

Thanks Prawn.

This time three years ago I had a big argument with a trendy right-on friend who was super pro trans (but before it kicked off massively), because I felt this whole transgender/gender queer ideology (not transsexualism) was regressive for feminism. At that point the people I knew, or knew of, doing it the most were degree educated, young 20s, women, self-identifying feminists, who were sick of being treated like, well, women, and wanted to put on power suits and be men sometimes, have a boys name and male pronouns and enjoy "male privilege" (as much as you can when everyone knows you're really a woman). They didn't want to be boxed in. I spent ages arguing that they would be better off changing the world by demonstrating you could be powerful as a woman, in a skirt if that's what you wanted, not just a man's suit, and that it was anti-feminist to suggest you have to become a man to get those things. Not because women do get them now, but because as a feminist you should be working to get them for all women, not finding a get out clause to be a man and bailing out once you've sorted things out for yourself. I still think it's anti-feminist, but I had no idea it would get this bad.

And the sad thing is these right-on, young feminists would previously have been shouting about girls in India. Now they can only shout about trans. They've become so fixated on one thing.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 04/11/2016 14:51

People really need to challenge this idiocy. I don't stick my head above the parapet nearly as much as I'd like to on social media for various reasons, but I would challenge this, in polite and reasonable language. Let the tumblr devotee look like the narcissistic idiot she is.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 04/11/2016 14:44

Any chance they're referring to pre-18 year old girls? Otherwise I'm at a loss... I mean other female animals have periods, but they specifically state humans so I don't really get it.

WankingMonkey · 04/11/2016 14:43

Bring on the stupid comments I say. More people noticing this bollocks leads more people to peak trans. Which in turn leads most to look into things a bit deeper and find out its all just a load of bullshit. Transgender I mean. Not transsexual. I know there is a very real condition that makes some yearn for the body of the opposite sex. Transgender though, I mean even to transactivists they say 'gender' is just a feeling. So how on earth can one be transgender when gender is just a feeling in your head to start with?!

Sorry. Not many people outside of tumblr will fall for this female penis, cotton ceiling etc malarkey. I am glad this is leaking out into more peoples lives.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 04/11/2016 14:26

Some intersex people have periods, I just googled it.

However the truth is that even including the tiny percentage of intersex people and the tiny percentage of dickheads who claim one of dozens of special snowflake genders, it's overwhelmingly women, biological females, who menstruate.

The person on your FB group is a goady fucker, and you have my sympathy.

I think if I were you I might point out the truly appalling situation worldwide faced by many girls who have to pull out of education and any participation in the public sphere when they start their period. Might point out that being "gender queer" is such a 1st world problem that in comparison with the troubles of girls in India that perhaps she might wind her neck in.

In other words, be even more right on than she is.

Original poster
ImpYCelyn · 04/11/2016 13:33

Holding my hands up to ignorance here, but is anyone able to explain who is being referred to here? Who are the humans who are not trans and not "women" who have periods? I'm not being goady, I'm just genuinely not sure. Is there actually a biological group that fit this? Or is this "gender queer, not one or the other"?

"As above - not all people who have periods are women, even ignoring the trans part of this you still have a large section of humans who are not trans and are not "women" who have periods."

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0phelia · 04/11/2016 12:37

At the end of the day, a transman still has part of them that is female. It's the part of them that bleeds once a month. So if you appear male or identify as such there's still a female part of you so it's a woman's issue not a man's issue.

I agree with Venus. Welcome to be in group but not if it is to disrupt the group, slur people and derail.

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