Happy to be women today in the UK

Yeah,you are missing the point.

Qualities that might be perceived as masculine such as, say, bravery, are not being "chopped off" (grim language, by the way)

Almond

I suppose i had this picture in my mind of a spectrum, at one end are behaviours thought of as feminine and at the other end are behaviours thought of as masculine. Perhaps I am missing the point, but it seems like the desire of many feminists would be to chop the right hand (masculine) side of the behaviour spectrum off and then shake it all up so that people can land anywhere on the spectrum regardless of their sex, then you wouldn't need a spectrum at all.

So I admit that the "feminisation process" is largely the metaphorical chopping off of the masculine end of the imaginary behaviour spectrum. The message this would send is that feminine is good and masculine is bad, but we just wont call them those names any more.

This is quite a radical theory, it supposes that the entirety of human history has been based on the misconception that violence and aggression amongst and between males is inevitable and needs to be channelled and controlled. That somehow the history of the humane race could be rewritten if we just taught boys that violence was wrong.

almond... ADHD is much more likely to be diagnosed in the US than the UK.

ADHD is thought to be the most common disorder of childhood. A 2009 study in the USA found that 6.3 per cent of children aged 5-9 were diagnosed with ADHD. In contrast, just 1.5 per cent of parents in the UK reported a diagnosis of ADHD in children aged between 6-8. The team looked at figures from the UK Millennium Cohort Study, which is a sample of more than 19,000 children, representative of the UK population. (from a 2013 study)

There's a really interesting discussion to be had about diagnostic criteria change in the new DSM and how this affects diagnostic rates and why. I can hold forth on it if anyone's interested.

The previous survey was in 1951, 65 years ago!

Then my pdgm was 42 with a 6yo and 10yo. She worked ft in a job she enjoyed, had a happy marriage and the next year moved into a new built council house.

My mdgm was 39, sahm with a 7yo, 5yo, 3yo and was pregnant. She lived in a 3 bed detached country cottage in a beautiful location which she owned outright (no mortgage). However her marriage was unhappy as her husband liked the drink.

Is my life really better than theirs? In a private let? With a dp who's unemployed? With hours commuting? With DCs being exposed to a pornified society?

Some things have improved but a lot is much worse!

Ooh, I know this one, pear!

If you want FWR posters to engage with your posts, maybe don't use the word feminazis, even if you are ostensibly quoting.

Nighty night

I'd also like to know about ADHD.

I don't know any kids with ADHD, much less one given medication for it,

Is ADHD as common a diagnosis in the UK as it is in the U.S., and for those that have it, are they likely to be given medication in the UK?

Because much of the claims around feminisation of boys and controlling boys behaviour I see from people who make that argument seems to be drawn from their understanding of parenting and schooling in the U.S. It doesn't chime with what I've seen in the UK.

almond

That's a good question, I'll need to think about it....maybe it isn't different.

*any

You keep asking me questions and not answering of mine.

What does feminising men mean to you, Pear? How is it different from preventing violence?

Do you think some children are too violent?

No, I'm suggesting that your(?) solution which is to "feminise" men or discourage "masculinity" is largely futile and that preventing/controlling/organising violence is the story of the entire history of humanity....why are you so sure that "gender" is the problem and if you fix that all the problems will go away ?

The vast majority of men aren't violent (however much they may have enjoyed fencing with cardboard tubes in their younger days).

Most men who are violent have grown up in families where violence is normalised, and are just replicating what they've seen around them.

and there's nothing to be done to prevent it

No. We already have means to control it and dissuade others from engaging in it. We've taught them it is wrong since forever, using many other tools, e.g. religion. You are the one saying that it's not worked and doesn't go far enough, and the entire edifice of "masculinity" needs to be torn down, people are validly asking what this might mean and what evidence you have that it will work. Since men are the cause of all the problems, and young boys are the ones the will become men, obviously they are the ones we should focus the attention on ?

"It is generally inappropriate to play fight at a party or in school.

Why is that even remotely controversial? "

I'm baffled too.

Pear, maybe we should start again. I assume that reducing interpersonal violence in the world is a goal you agree with, right?

It is generally inappropriate to play fight at a party or in school.

Why is that even remotely controversial?

If it were a laser quest party for 8 year olds, and some kids decided to sit down in the middle of it because they'd rather be colouring in, that would likewise be inappropriate.

Most opportunities kids have for rough and tumble is in unsupervised, unstructured open environments.

If people are bringing kids up to think I'll roll up to a party and do whatever I like regardless of the effort that was put in to organising it and the preferences of other people, that's selfishness. The cardboard tubes have nothing to do with it.

But society already does encourage children to behave in ways that it deems acceptable, that is the point. Infact it has gone way beyond that and created laws and things that forbid violence and punish deviation with enforced incarceration. None of this has, apparently, ended violence. What further education is needed to stop men being violent ? What evidence do we have that education itself prevents boys growing into violent men ?

No grow, it was in answer to Yonic's comment. You know, a joke. With them. It was pretty clear it was aimed at them, what with me naming them in it. It's a bit grim that you have taken a flippant comment to Yonic so deliberately out of context. You're completely correct, this is going nowhere, but that's not down to me.

Yonic

We mustn't discourage boys from violence, because there's absolutely no evidence that what they are taught in childhood will influence their behaviour as adults. So why be spoil sports; let them bash each other with stuff. Got it.

This read like sarcasm to me, in fact one might say it was dripping

Xenophile

This is going nowhere...but OK....your comment about "it was hardly making the boys sit down and learn how to do calligraphy" was intended to trivialise the point that boys are prohibited from engaging in activities that they find fun as part of some misguided attempt to end all violence or something by banning behaviours deemed "masculine".

You said Buffy's post was dripping with sarcasm, pear, hardly pleasant and I disagree with you that was the case.

I'll agree she then responded sarcastically. Then you snided.